Stephen Tall’s guest slot: another Lib Dem election?
August 31st, 2006Past precedent, future Presidents…
For those feeling starved of party election contests, the Lib Dems might just have a morsel to stave off the hunger pangs pending the Big One, Labour’s Brown v Someone battle.
Simon Hughes (pictured), the current party President, is nearing the end of his first two-year term of office, and is eligible for re-election for one further term. The question is: will he re-stand, and if he does will anyone challenge him?
When last the post was up for grabs, in 2004, Simon won an impressive mandate: 24,333 (71%) Lib Dem members chose him over fellow MP, Lembit Öpik, in an election which saw a pretty healthy 47% turn-out. But, prior to that, you have to go back a decade, to 1994, for the previous contested election.
Which may suggest the post of President is not exactly the most coveted of roles - so what is it the President is expected to do? Well, officially s/he “shall be the principal public representative of the party and shall chair the Federal Executive”. Or, as Simon has rather more snappily put it, the job is “to be the voice of party members within the party, and the voice of the party to the outside world”.
Two aspects may well arouse greater interest in a contested election this time. The first, and most obvious, is the opportunity it affords any MP thinking of a future leadership contest to raise their profile within the party. The happy precedent here would be Charles Kennedy, who topped the poll twice, in 1990 and 1992, enjoying embarrassingly Stalinist votes of 82% and 70% respectively.
However, the presidential path is not always paved with gold. Simon’s first year as President appeared not to stand him in good stead during his second unsuccessful run for the leadership, with the previously less well-known Chris Huhne instead emerging as the activists’ favourite. Nor did Lembit’s failed presidential campaign strengthen his base of support within the party.
That the Lib Dems’ leader and deputy leader are both men in their 60s will certainly increase the pressure on one of the party’s up-and-coming female MPs to throw their hat into the ring. Lynne Featherstone, Susan Kramer, Jo Swinson and Jenny Willott (for example) all have loyal followings, and each would be an asset at the party’s top table.
There is, though, a second possible aspect which may pique interest. There is no reason why the President must be a Parliamentarian - though the need to have time, relevant experience and a public profile will likely limit the pool of possible candidates who may wish to stand on an “activists’ ticket”. In any David versus Goliath battle, a fair few Lib Dem members will be hardwired to root for the underdog. And on a 40-50% turn-out anything might happen.
Nominations for the presidency open on 4th September, and close on the 27th September. If the Presidency is contested, the all-member ballot will take place between 11th October and 3rd November. There’s no betting market as yet, but it would provide gamblers with a diversion from the future of the Labour party.
Stephen Tall is a Lib Dem councillor in Oxford. He runs his own website, www.stephentall.org.uk, and blogs at A Liberal Goes A Long Way.
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No self-respecting Stalinist was ever returned on a vote of 82%, let alone 70%. Trust me on this one, Stephen - back in my drinking days I married one
What a great artical Stephen. Funnily enough I spoke to a LibDem Councillor about this last week. He was sure that the party would engage in a bit of profiling of their own - a young woman would emerge, not because she’s be particularly good but to contrast with the current leadership. Having said that my view is that Featherstone or Swinson would both be very good at it. However I don’t think Simon Hughes would be challenged and this is an arguement for 2 years time!
I’d be delighted to see Lynne as party president.
The thing will all-member ballots is that so much relies on name recognition, that non-MPs are never going have enough ‘anti-establishment’ support to get anywhere, unless it’s somebody with celebrity outside parliament.
Nice piece Stephen and a welcome relief from the preoccupation with Blair/GB on this site through a summer which has been a bit barren for us political punters.
Might PB use its considerable influence to persuade Betfair to open a market? Personally I’ve no idea who would win and I wouldn’t like to be the odds compiler.
O/T I had a bit of a tiff with Anthony Wells on his YouGov blog. Anthony, who occasionally posts here, was characteristically reasonable and professional in response to my criticisms. For those who are not already familiar with it, I commend his blog. It is at http://www.ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog It makes the perfect complement to Political Betting.
sorry to be off topic - the death has been announced of Hector Munro former MP for Dumfries.
http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1284712006
1) How safe is Ming ?
As you say in the article the presidents role is often used as a springboard to challenge for the leadership, But as an outsider I’d say Hughes is well known anyway and if he did believe he could have another chance soon then he no longer needs the presidency to raise his profile.
It wouldnt suprise me if Hughes did decide to call it a day either.
Featherstone was part of Huhne’s campaign so presumably he owes her.
2) are the Orange bookers in the ascendant ?
A reason for staying on would be to help block somebody else, depending on how willing the Bookers and Cleggites are to move into position .
I can see the Presidency fulfilling the same role as the Deputy Leader battle in LAB - A proxy fight between different wings .
3) A Kennedy Comeback ?
It may be too soon, but I can see the return of the king would energise a lot of activists. The minor skirmishes in the media we are currently seing will be interesting to track as a sign that the comeback is on.
This will be only really of interest within the Libdems so 99% of the Country will not know it is happening. My guess is Hughes will restand and win. I doubt Lembit will stand given how silly he looked during the Kenndy and Oaten sagas.
It looks like you can only do two terms but they are of two years, not four. I could see a possible future leader going for this role after Hughes finishes a second term.
There are one or two people in the Lib Dems with near “celebrity” status for members eg Tony Greaves (but who has been ill). Martin (now Lord) Thomas tried a few years back, but although quite well known among “old” Liberals, didn’t really “cut it” in the celebrity stakes!
[5] I love it when the world confirms my fantasies about it - at the end of the obit it says Lord Munro is survived by his wife, Doris, and two sons, one a major-general and the other a brigadier - they don’t make Tories like that any more, do they?
4 - peter, read your gentlemanly exchange with Anthony. If that’s your idea of a spat, you need anger un-management training from others on this site.
But I completely concur with your recommendation of the site.
I’m ploughing through the detailed tables from the Taxpayers’ Alliance poll (224 pages). If you leave aside the more tendentious questions about tax (here are 16 reasons to dislike tax, which do you agree with? Now, do you favour reducing any of the following taxes?) there are lots of nuggets to interest pb.c pm’ers. For instance, there’s a measure of the core votes of each party. Asked who, if any, they identify with, they get
24% Lab, 17% Con, 9% LD, 4% others, 40% nobody.
Just 10% say flatly they’re satisfied with Labour’s record. On the other hand, say they aren’t satisfied but prefer a Labour government to a Conservative one, while 36% say they’d prefer a Conservative government. 12% reject all three options. Among LDs, Labour is either liked (12%) or preferred to Tories by a 69-23 margin. (Remember though the human tendency to pick the middle option if given a choice of three.) Asked to choose between DC and GB as being more in touch and competent, there’s an even split.
Sorry, typo, omitted the figure for “not satisfied but prefer Labour - it’s 39%.
At the conference Evan Harris will vote to keep the 50p rate on earnings of more than £150,000 plan:
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article1222831.ece
The role of president would be an ideal one for the comeback of CK. It would give the party an enormous boost and enable CK to have a active role, but one that he could work himself into as he recovers from his alcohol problems. I shall e-mail him today and ask that he put his name forward.
I personally would support any “stop the orange book” candidate for this influencial position.
Interesting -
I say bring back Cyril Smith!
Could Charles Kennedy stand again for president? That would be interesting
I’d be extremely surprised if CK went for the position - but I do think there will be a contested election.
I think it’s a mistake to see the likely contest as one of ideological differences. I think it’s more likely to be a case of:
* who will present the best face of the party to the wider world
* who will be best placed to work on some of the ‘behind the scenes’ requirements for the role eg representing the membership and increasing its size
My personal preference would be for Jo Swinson or Lynne Featherstone. Matthew Taylor would be a safe pair of hands and is an accomplished media performer, who is currently under-used imo.
13 MJS. If Kennedy stood he walk it …. or perhaps stagger it !! …. there remains a great deal of goodwill for CK in the party. Indeed he might be elected unopposed. Further the Presidency would allow him to continue any rehab without the work required in a specific portfollio.
Additionally Chuck is a good media performer and the job requires a high media profile. A good way back for CK !!
The only drawback is that Kennedy might be seen as the Prince over the (whisky and) water. An alternative court ??
10. LOL! My trouble is that I dislike rudeness of any kind, even on PB where a certain amount of mudslinging is to be expected as part of the knockabout fun. Just as well I’m not a politician!
I really like Anthony’s site and I’ve learned to respect his professionalism over the years, so I was loathe to criticise but something about ‘The Taxpayers Alliance’ rubbed my fur up the wrong way. Who are these people who purport to speak for ‘us’?
BTW, I will be answering your email later this morning. You are about to learn more about CDC than you ever wished to know!
Re 17, Iain Dale ran an article to which an anonymous poster posted these alternative words to the Skye boat song:
Speed bonnie boat,
Like a hack on the make;
Back to his seat on Skye.
Carry the lad that was born to be King,
Back to the seat on Skye
Where is the man?
Down in the bar,
Loudly the Whips pro-clai-aim
Out on the town,
Out of his head,
Charlie is pissed again
I like the song, and this version did make me smile, but we will have to see about Charlie’s recovery.
From a health point of view I don’t know if it is too soon for him.
Stephen Tall
Good leader.
I haven’t got much time today- but looking at Oxford local issues-
re; the outside cafe space on Broad Street- why is the Tory led county council being allowed to overrule a town council decision? I have written to the Tory council leader pointing out the clear democratic defecit but received no response.
And, Jean- a fine woman- but she is really taking a local bashing on the wheely bin issue. Residents naturally want wheely bins, but want them collected weekly.
Also, I humbly apologise to the site (especially Julian H, a fine fellow of a man) for my typos. As a dyslexic illiterate who frequently rushes the writing of posts without reading them back, I am lost without my spell and grammar check.
Benedict - that song is sung at the “Glee Club” at Lib Dem Conference every year - and even published in the Liberator Songbook. One of a number of affectionate digs at friends (& enemies) that we get in when we’ve had more than a few drinks ourselves
The serious point is that this song has been in the Songbook since well before 1999 when CK became leader (in fact I think it dates from the early 90s), so the fact that he liked a dram or two was hardly a secret. Indeed, since the media do like to pop along to the Glee Club from time to time (no idea why!), it can hardly have been a surprise to them too.
“My personal preference would be for Jo Swinson or Lynne Featherstone. Matthew Taylor would be a safe pair of hands and is an accomplished media performer, who is currently under-used imo. ”
Swinson has come out of the CK drink issue smelling of roses. But she is still very young and is better of making her mark in the Shadow Cabinet. Taylor is a good choice, and given his run for deputy leader, he does seem to have the drive still.
How about Jeremy Thorpe? (Joke!)
22.”How about Jeremy Thorpe? (Joke!) ”
uhm, your animal welfare policy would need a review in that case.
More songs here: http://www.liberator.org.uk/tipTypeArticles.asp?type=Songs
You can’t beat “The Land”, “Bermondsey” and “The Liberal March”
I am not 100% sure but do not think Kennedy can stand having served two terms as President already.
Random suggestion for President - Lorley Burt MP
19 - that’s been sung at the glee club at party conferences for at least 15 years. It’s included in the ‘Liberator song book’ wich can be ordered from:
http://www.liberator.org.uk/
It has lots of other old favourites like ‘Losing deposits’, ‘Exmoor ba tat’ and ‘on the first day of merger’.
It also includes songs of historical interest such as the ‘Liberal March’ and ‘The Land’ from the 1906 campaign. Interestingly ‘the Land’ is about Land Tax and contains the lines -
‘Why should we work hard and let the landlords take the best
Make them pay their taxes on the land just like the rest!’
I was told recently that Charles having been party president for two two-year terms in the 1990s is not eligible to stand in any future contest. Can anyone confirm this?
Whilst Simon does have a certain following in the membership, it is hard to see anything from his term as president so far to commend him. Perhaps conscious of the comparison with his previous election pledges he would back out if faced with a contest?
Re 20, Tyson What about the democracy deficit when the ODPM wants councils to build more houses than there voters want?
Or when tuition fees are passed with Scotish votes in England?
Or are you only worried about it where you live?
RE 21, Oxonian, yes I know. I find this current clamour a bit of high hypocracy.
On the health note, I just hope if he stands, he is well enough.
Charlie Kennedy president? There has been strong runour he’s up for a comeback so maybe this is the target but I would have thought a nice front bench post in a Ming reshuffle was the idea?
If I was was the Ming Man I wouldn’t want Charles being anywhere near an elected post, it would only risk showing off his popularity if he walked the vote. I’m sure Ming is looking at the procedure book right now and perhaps has found what has been suggested here, Charles can’t stand (now I could make a joke there…but sure..)
[26] I’ve a bone to pick with you, Dan
- I followed your link and then found myself at Lord Bonkers’ Diary… I was going out to have a decaff latte but after Lord B’s reference to “an inflatable Boris Johnson” I think I need the caffeine and it isn’t good for me, you know 
26. Nice to see the Lib Dems showing how up to date they are with the issues that really vex ordinary people, like landlordism. Perhaps the next manifesto can include some proposals in other key areas like Irish Home Rule, married womens’ property rights and the extension of the franchise.
32- I think you will find a penny on a packet of fags to pay for education is still high up on their manisfesto…
(O/T apologies Orange lovelies…but has Guido finally self-exploded
? Haven’t been able to access the site for a couple of days.)
32 Wag. Don’t get beyond yourself …… I’m still waiting for the Whig (Lib Dem) reaction to the landing of that basta*d Monmouth in the West Country !!
34 John O. “…. Orange lovelies …”
Me think you need a holiday John !!
John O - his order-order.com address seems to have died, he is still around on the 5thnovember address.
34. Guido’s site is alive and well and dropping very unsubtle hints about Kennedy’s ‘recovery’.
35. V.Nice Jack.
34 John O. BTW Just had a squint at Guido, no probs for me over the past few days.
37 Antony. Seems strange, I’m still getting Guido through order-order.com ???
5thnovemver.blogspot.com
See earlier post for CK > brown incident.
41. Sleeping like a log, I understand.
Tories pledge to raise “green taxes” if elected. However the boy Osborne having skipped double maths would not specify in what direction these tax rises would occur or broad rates :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5300880.stm
43 - The Tories are turning into a poor man’s Liberal Democrats, aren’t they?
ok here is my suggestion for an activist lib dem president, drum roll please………………………….. Mike Smithson!!
I see Osborne is promising a raft of unspecified Green taxes http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5300880.stm What is the betting that they will be pinching some of Ming’s proposals and all those Conservatives who were critical of them on here will be U Turning and saying they are the best thing since sliced bread (wholewheat ) .
Benedict White- glad that you are on the site, and going off thread again- you keep on talking about the great reforms by the Tories for the poor in days gone by. You suggest here here that the Tories have always been interested in the poor. Just to point out though that there are many who think that the reforms were motivated by;
-providing concessions to the poor to dampen down revolutionary instincts;
-or more plausibly, entirely driven by the needs of capital to have a healthy and educated workforce to better exploit;
More recently, Thatcher’s right to buy policy was driven by a narrow sectional interest to buy off the working classes, and up the Tory voting ranks. As a result, over the years, there have been many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of poor (predominantly Labour, or politically unaffaliates) who have lost access to good quality, state housing. The transient poupulations that populate our seaside resorts are testament to that. Why do we have so many millions of incapacity benefit seekers without any roots back into stable communities?
Heseltine’s inner city reforms in the 1980’s were in response to the riots. Thatcher’s assault on the working classes had led such a degeneration in our great city centres that they were on the verge of revolution.
It is this attempt to reposition the Tories as some socially, conscience animal that is now again acting the voice for the working classes by opposing immigration; it just doesn’t wash.
Nor is presenting Tory concern for the public sector credible, after the experience of 18 years of running everything down. People remember. And by the way, during 10 years of opposition name one decent policy the Tories have come up with for the public sector, anything at all, just one. Sorry “bring back matron”. That is just how seriously the Tories take public services.
Now that Labour has finally learnt how to manage capital- everyone wins. Capitalists, working classes, public services and the poor. This is one thing Labour has been honest about- they manage capital better because they can invest more in public services, and redistribute wealth.
I wish you Tories would not be so disengenuous. Do not say you are anti immigration because you are protecting the rights of the working classes. Many of you just do not like immigrants, especially black or asian ones. You still have many racists in your party, who support your party, and who represent your party. Same old record, but needs to be played until your party, at least at a representational level is either purged off racists, or is honest about its views.
You do not particularly like the non working poor, or the underclass. You wouldn’t be wanting to put so many of them in prison otherwise. You wouldn’t have turned so many of the underclass into transients who live below the wire. You do not like traditional working classes because they do not care for you.
These things need to be said. Not to change you personally, but to stop the masquerade of the Tories re-positioning themselves under false pretences. I know many Tories. I know what their inner and core beliefs are. I know what drives them into the arms of the Tory party. I know what they say to each other when they think they are in closed company.
Jack @ 40: Very strange - http://order-order.com works, http://www.order-order.com doesn’t. At least, not for me.
47 - noise.
48 Antony. I use the link on the right that is without the http://www.
No good asking this compter illiterate why, but some seem to do without the http://www. ok. The Beeb never use it !
Tyson, of course the Conservatives were motivated by electoral self-interest in improving the opportunities available to the working classes. Just as Labour is motivated by electoral self-interest in expanding the number of peeople depending on the State for their income.
51. ….and expanding the number of people thankful to them for their right to reside in the UK
52, That too.
Nine Scottish firefighters have been disciplined for refusing to hand out leaflets at a gay pride march !
Apparently there was also a squabble over their hoses !! oh er missus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/5301334.stm
Anthony, Jack, Thanks chaps: I was missing my five-times-a-day dose
RE 47, Tyson “Just to point out though that there are many who think that the reforms were motivated by;
-providing concessions to the poor to dampen down revolutionary instincts;
-or more plausibly, entirely driven by the needs of capital to have a healthy and educated workforce to better exploit;”
It is very hard to have a productive discussion with some one who wishes to put the worst of motives on anything we do, even if it is to the good of the poor or anyone else.
I could go on, but as you will interpret any thing I say in the most negative way possible I am not sure there is any point.
I think it is very unlikely Charles Kennedy will stand for President; it is indeed highly unlikely he is eligible to stand because of the way the party constitution is drafted. Nice try, though.
Amazingly nobody seems to have heard of a definite challenger to Hughes. However, there is almost certain to be one; who it is will depend on (a) whether there is a feeling among the sort of people on the Federal Executive and those committees that Hughes has been so bad that he needs to be replaced; (b) whether there is an MP with sufficient ambition that they can put up with an unpaid position that involves a fair amount of time and lots of travel for the rubber chicken circuit; (c) a non-parliamentarian brave or insane enough to challenge the status quo.
I go for (c) and fancy that any such will get a good vote.
Ref Liberator, it is always a reliable source of information on these matters and regarded as essential reading my many Liberals. The Songbook is also good value.
56. Ranting on about ‘the needs of capital’ to ‘exploit’ the workers tell us more about dear Tyson’s inner prejudices than the rest of his rambling effort does about the prejudices of the Tories, methinks.
Has Rik W vanished? He never commented on:
the other day Rik Willis was having an argument with a fellow Conservative on here about whether paid Tory agents were necessary or a waste of space.
Given his employment with Rob Wilson MP perhaps this story about the (unpaid) Tory agent for the Reading East MP might make him change his mind:
http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/2003/2003351/drinkdriving_tory_banned_from_road ?
“Ref Liberator, it is always a reliable source of information on these matters and regarded as essential reading my many Liberals. The Songbook is also good value.”
Is the Collective on a profit share?
Wag at 32 wrote: “26. Nice to see the Lib Dems showing how up to date they are with the issues that really vex ordinary people, like landlordism.”
Not landlordism, but Land Tax which, ahem, even some prominent Tories have recently been talking about.
By the way, the “WAG” monkier doesn’t really narrow it down much - which one are you? My money’s on Ashley Cole’s wife but if not, mostl likely Wayne Rooney’s ladyfriend.
It is very difficult to call this election without knowing who the runners and riders are. If Hughes does not run again, look for another challenger from the left - says, Evan Harris.
There will certainly be a female candidate. Most of the new impressive female MPs are too young, and will want to concentrate on ministerial shadowing - but Lynne Featherstone may have a go. Liz Lynne MEP may also be fed up with the European parliament, and has never been publicity or ambition shy. There must be worthy female candidates in the Lords too.
Among other MPs, Malcolm Bruce may want a swansong. Safe pair of hands and all that - no ambition left for something senior. So could Alan Beith. However, the latter may still have ambitions to be Speaker of the Commons (as did Ming once). Matthew Taylor will no doubt have a go. Lembit is unlikely to try again. John Hemming is a loose cannon (!) and may have a go.
It could be from the Lords; who had heard of Lord Dholakia before he became President. From the Lords, Archie Kirkwood is an old hand and would do a good job. There will be others… Paul Tyler? Alex Carlile if he gets bored working for the Government?
In the end I do not expect more than 3 candidates. One from the left (Hughes or AN Other), one woman, and AN Other (probably Taylor). This means that if there is an Orange Booker, it will probably be Featherstone.
59 readingliberal. Rik is on a political working holiday in a south coast boat yard restoring Morning Cloud !
BTW on your moniker ….. is it so unusual for a liberal to read ??
62 - “If Hughes does not run again, look for another challenger from the left - says, Evan Harris.” should read “If Hughes does not run again, look for another challenger from the left - say, Evan Harris.”
sorry. kind of alters the meaning.
Wag @ 32 - “Free Trade and Home Rule” remain manifesto commitments still largely to be implemented
- not to mention disestablishmentarianism :-).
For the punters, I strongly tip one of the wimmin to be well worthy of a gamble.
59 RikW hasn’t commented upon the story but I will - I find it utterly incredible that a cllr caught 3 times over the drink drive limit (who also ran from the scene of the crash) doesn’t consider he should resign from his position immediately
Any prominent Tories on this site care to defend this man’s view?
47 - if you think that Labour finally has learnt how to manage the economy, then I think that you missed the recent ICM poll. Well worth a look.
Until this week, I’d have said Sarah Teather would have been a good possibility for president, but after the Kennedy serialisation this seems less likely.
How about a true Liberal for president - Dave Cameron?
47 “…This is one thing that Labour has been honest about …”. The, implication is that New Labour have not been honest about much else.
A faint signal in the noise from Tyson.
54. Jack, yup, I read it. Fergus Ewing has defended them in the press. Muriel Gray savaged him in The Herald (and she implicitly advocated to vote against him at the next election)
Re 66, Gerry, No I don’t fancy defending him. Mind you I am only a humble member.
67.”Until this week, I’d have said Sarah Teather would have been a good possibility for president, but after the Kennedy serialisation this seems less likely”
I read on LabourHome that she plans to contest Brent Central and not Hampstead and Kilburn next time. It’s a risky decision, because H&K will be much easier to win than BC.
71. Ah, the source is Kilburn Times, but I haven’t read their piece myself, so I’m not sure of what kind of report they made
66 A cynic might consider that he’s trying to avoid a by-election and disappear quietly next May.
47. Oh dear, Tyson, it hurts doesn’t it? Your party has become the party of illegal wars, of women-molesting deupty prime ministers, of sleazy resignees in the European Commission, of generally bombing foreigners, of mortage fiddling ministers, of lying about dossiers, of allowing massive immigration because it’s good for business, of betraying the poor and the working classes, or hating this country because it is too white, of.. well… I don’t need to go on, do I?
Your party has lost the moral high ground it might have once occupied. Indeed it’s not even in the moral low ground. You lot are in the moral gutter, with blood on your hands, and the betrayed eyes of the poor looking at you with contempt.
I guess this hurts for leftwingers. I imagine a lot of decent Labourites feel very betrayed by what New Labour has done in their name.
Nevertheless it was done in your name, and you have to bear the shame.
I feel your pain, really.
66. There are prominent Tories on this site? really?
75 There is one especially prominent Tory poster on this site who uses the moniker ……. oh special branch rattling at the gates again !!
How stories evolve department: the Sunday Times rang two days ago to interview me at length on whether the Guardian story about a potential challenge of some sort to TB at the conference was right: was it likely or desirable? They rang again today about a different angle (’would Gordon as leader help in your marginal?’). To avoid duplication I mentioned the earlier interview, and they said no, the responses to that hadn’t been interesting enough so they’d scrapped it. In other words, I take it that most MPs responded like me (’neither likely nor desirable’). In the current interview, they tried hard to get me to say ‘I think Gordon Brown might save my seat’, prompting me twice whether I wouldn’t agree with those words - I said I thought he’d be helpful but I didn’t feel the seat was otherwise doomed anyway. The other main line of questions was whether I wanted a leadership election. (I said GB had nothing to worry about, but a friendly and constructive election discussing issues would be positive.)
I don’t think we can reasonably expect RikW to comment here on a colleague in the same team - give Rik a break! But I would have thought that the Tories would be telling the fellow to stand down at the earliest opportunity.
RE 77, Nick, it is interesting how they ring around, and when they don’t find any “bad news” they don’t bother to write it up, but ring around again to see if they can get it another way.
I suppose we get the press we pay for, which is why the internet in general and blogosphere in particular are taking off.
On the drunk driver issue, yes, I suppose people will be shouting at him privately.
This guy more local to me didn’t resign either on the drink driving charge
http://archive.thisisdorset.net/2002/6/29/88763.html
until they caught him with child porn some years later
http://www.standardsboard.co.uk/Casesummaries/Casesummaries/N/NorthDorsetDistrictCouncil/Name,2803,en.html
The mind boggles really
47 Why do we have to have the absolute rubbish from the left that the Right to Buy has somehow caused homelessness? For the majority of people who bought their home under right to buy would still have been living in them as a council house were it not for right to buy. So it hasn’t reduced anything.
Mind you the fact that Labour are now building fewer houses per year than the Major government is quite telling.
75. Of course there are prominent Conservatives on this site. We all hang on every word written by Snowflake5 who is clearly an unreconstructed Thatcherite. Unfortunately she is stuck in the past whilst the rest of us have moved on to the new century…
Re the drink driving Councillor, the late Jamie Cann MP didn’t resign when caught drink driving, so I suppose it is just the way of things. Don’t do as I do, do as I say.
I think if I had been caught drink driving I would be asked to consider my position by my local party.
However I am not going to make myself a hostage to fortune just in case!
RE 81, I can remember a Labour MP had his car caught doing over 100MPH. I think he was Home Secratary at the time.
47 Tyson
You claim to know what the Tory mind is. I am a proud Englishman and know what motivates the socialist and the left winger. I am not a racist.
The ultimate aim of socialism is to undermine and destroy the white western world. Every far left wing organisation always has either an Anglophobe or a white hater using false names to hide their anti-English, anti-white agendas and uses deception to cover it up.
The reason why the far left hates the white man is because the white man rejected communism in the early part of the last century and the left have wanted to get even ever since. This hatred of the white man is propagated by the Race War industry this includes the CRE, BBC and the fiercely Anglophobic SWP, RCP, etc. The left also uses niaive white people who feel alienated and plays catholic v protestant card or vice versa to create civil wars (e.g in Ireland, etc.) and disunity. Your left wing brothers enacted biased Racial Equality Laws and worded them in a premeditated way to prevent freedom of speech on important issues like immigration. The left created the term ‘racism’ and encouraged the non-white to use it in an aggressive, manipulative way against the white man. The left also created ‘Political Correctness’ so as to further stifle debate. Now you want unlimited immigration into England hoping to weaken and permanently destroy it. Tony Blair has done the job for you. I’m sure that when England falls into chaos you will be laughing and cheering the day the white man becomes a minority in his own country, the July 7th bombings will be like a storm in teacup by then.
I don’t like to say it but unlimited immigration is an act of war against the English and Tony Blair knows it. The Labour Party wants to get even with the English white working classes because they did not back up the miners’ union leaders (who are all well known marxists, Anglophobes and white haters) during the 1980s strikes,and unlimited immigration is the perfect punishment for us.
Ben: you’re uncharacteristically intemperate in describing the criticism of Right to Buy as ‘absolute rubbish’. There’s obviously a case for it, not least that it’s popular, but this is the problem. People’s incomes vary (usually upwards) over time, and historically people in council houses would in due course buy a private hopuse of their own. The council house would then be freed to rent out to someone on low-income, probably just entering rthe workforce, and the system was self-sustaining.
By requiring councils to sell the houses to interested tenants at a massive discount, the Conservatives forced councils to accept a reduction in the council housing stock, reinofrcing it by forbidding them from ring-fencing the (reduced) proceeds to build at least some new council houses as replacements. Labour has modified this by allowing councils to spend the housing proceeds gradually on the housing stock, though most councils have refurbished existing homes rather than build new ones. The discount remains, though somewhat scaled back, so the underlying trend downwards remains. If the proposed policy to req
Ben: you’re uncharacteristically intemperate in describing the criticism of Right to Buy as ‘absolute rubbish’. There’s obviously a case for it, not least that it’s popular, but this is the problem. People’s incomes vary (usually upwards) over time, and historically people in council houses would in due course buy a private hopuse of their own. The council house would then be freed to rent out to someone on low-income, probably just entering rthe workforce, and the system was self-sustaining.
By requiring councils to sell the houses to interested tenants at a massive discount, the Conservatives forced councils to accept a reduction in the council housing stock, reinofrcing it by forbidding them from ring-fencing the (reduced) proceeds to build at least some new council houses as replacements. Labour has modified this by allowing councils to spend the housing proceeds gradually on the housing stock, though most councils have refurbished existing homes rather than build new ones. The discount remains, though somewhat scaled back, so the underlying trend downwards remains. If the proposed policy to req
82 Then there was Harriet Harman, Solicitor General, done for I think 99mph, but might be slightly less. I remember thinking it was convenient that she wasn’t doing 100mph.
I think the story you meant may have been Jack Straw’s driver who did over 100mph. They got away with it by arguing a possible danger to the Home Secretary, but IIRC he was late for a meeting.
…uire Housing Associations to do the same, it will repeat the problem there. I think it’s a genuine issue, and not at all absolute rubbish.
81 - one other aspect of the Reading councillor case that hasn’t been mentioned is that the party was a quarter of a mile from his house and yet he still took the car! Shows what many Tories really think of Cameron’s ‘green’ agenda.
A 27 year old man can’t be bothered to walk 400 yards, gets pissed, wraps his car round a tree and then runs away. Next we’ll be hearing how the Tories are tough on yob culture…
Whether the housing stock is council or privately owned would have no bearing on the overall supply though.
84 & 87 - And now let’s get to the real reason socilaists did not like the council house sell-off; because it lifted people free of state dependency and meant that the state had less control over their lives.
Which is exactly why true-blue Conservatives loved it.
On a lighter and O/T note, I’ve just been to the RAF Museum in Hendon.
I expected it to be cheesy and dull - I went there for “work” reasons - but its incredibly moving. Elgar at full volume. Lots of Spitfires and V2s. And lots of kids and families looking at Sopwith Camels. I saw at least three old RAF veterans, proud in their blazers and medals, watching footage of Churchill doing a speech.
I am embarrassed to admit I almost blubbed. Well, almost. I was amazed too at the unabashed patriotism of the place. Most politically incorrect. I am quite surprised Labour hasn’t levelled the whole museum in anger; I do understand their are plans at Cabinet Level to turn it into the Winnie Mandela Theme Park, next year, a place to celebrate Africa’s greatest woman.
Every child in the country should be bussed to the RAF Museum once a year, so they know what a great country this was, and can still be. Then some of them might not grow up wanting to slaughter the rest of us.
85/87 — agree with Nick Palmer about social housing.
A shortage of social housing can also be a factor in causing racial tension if what little social housing that is built is then allocated preferentially to immigrants or ethnic minorities (who are often in greatest need).
Trouble is that if Labour were to massively invest in social housing, the Tories would likely then sell it off at a discount (attracting votes) and use the money to pay for tax cuts (attracting more votes).
Maybe the government could buy up some of these abandoned streets in northern towns, and use them as social housing. Restoration work would provide an initial economic stimulus, and simply increasing the population would provide more.
88. You might think about adding ‘Desperate’ to your moniker.
91 I’ve not been there for years, but it is good fun, and it’s certainly cheering to learn that they’re not required to put on exhibitions about racial tension or sexual harrassment in the RAF.
This Lib Dem councillor mixed refusal to resign for drink driving with cross dressing as well.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/81/81125_drinkdrive_councillors_voter_pledge.html
89: Sean Fear: yes, if one accepts that homelessness is bad (not just for the individuals but the society around them) it’s perfectly possible in theory to solve it entirely with private provision: you set Housing Benefit at a rate generous enough to attract private investor, and they build the homes to accomodate HB recipients. To some extent this is exactly what is happening. However, many private landlords refuse to take HB recipients, whether out of bad experience or prejudice, so some people do end up homeless or near-homeless (dossing on friends’ sofas etc.) because they can’t dfind a private place to take them and the public supply is shrinking.
Straight Talker: if you can’t be bothered to respond to a serious point, I can’t be bothered to reply to your rhetoric.
94. Yes, I was expecting - dreading - that round the next corner I’d see some special exhibit honouring the role of Malcolm X in fighting slavery or something. But no! It’s all about how great Britain is, and how resolute we were during the war. Fab. I’m sure there are plans to modernise it and make it relevent to alienated Wahabbist youth in Colindale.
Why should the drink driving Cllr resign? He has stated he won’t seek re election. He was stupid, did something wrong and will be rightly punished by the courts.
I assume he wasn’t under the influence while carrying out his role. Has he missed meetings because of drink? Gosh this is reminding me of a someone already mentioned a few times here today…
RE 96, One of the reasons why private landlords are less kean on HB tenants is that if the tenant, by mistake or otherwise gets over paid HB, the council take it off the landlord. The tenant usualy does not have the means to make good the over payment either.
As for your proposition on social housing, I am afraid I can’t agree. Many of the people I know who have bought stayed in their houses after buying them for years, had they not bought them it is much more likely than not that they would have also stayed in those same houses.
When they do move it is in many ways equivelent to the old house swap situation, except taht they have a wider choice and no waiting list.
The real key issue as to why there is a current shortage is that the number of housholds is growing, both within the currently resident population and also because immigrants need housing also (though they are not always able to get social housing) whilst less social and indeed general housing has been built.
RE 85, Nick Palmer MP. Where is your evidence taht but for the right to buy most people in social housing move on and move up to home ownership? And of those who do, how many use some form of shared ownership?
91/97 seanT. I think you would do well to remember that patriotism isn’t the preserve of the right. Tens of thousands of RAF personnel died in WWII who would descibe themselves as socialists, liberals and of no particular political persuasion.
Not forgetting of course that in 1945 the service vote put the most socialist government we’ve ever had into Downing Street replacing a Conservative PM and greatest political leader we’ve ever had.
O/T Ken Livingstone in trouble again accusing Trevor Phillips of ‘going so far over to the other side he’ll soon join the BNP’
Link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/articles/2005/06/03/tvnews.shtml
Play the London news 4 mins 30 secs is the report.
101. Sorry old pal, but I disagree. I think patriotism is, largely, now the preserve of the right (and maybe some Lib Dems?!!). This is a real shame. Of course back in 39-45 lots of Brits were unashamedly patriotic and whole-hearted socialists - there was no contradiction. And quite rightly - there shouldn’t be. The 45 Labour government was the best Labour government ever, one of the best British governments ever, but people like Nye Bevin and Atlee loved their country, too. They would have blinked in perplexity at modern lefty attitudes.
Because these days patriotism is sneered at by virtually all of the left. Some leftoids are overt in their anti-Britishness, some disguise it as rampant europhilia or cheerleading for immigration. Either way they despise where they come from. I think this is a tragedy more for the left than for Britain, but it ain’t good for anyone.
Bring back decent lefties like Atlee and Bevin!!
“91/97 seanT. I think you would do well to remember that patriotism isn’t the preserve of the right. Tens of thousands of RAF personnel died in WWII who would descibe themselves as socialists, liberals and of no particular political persuasion. ”
Fair point. Much of the Left would do well to remember that fact also.
Patriotism (and nationalism) should really fall more comfortably with socialists than people whose politics focusses more on the individual. To say one is proud of their country essentially means that they are proud of millions of people they have never met and many parts of land they have never been to - this is a very much a collectivist sentiment.
103 seanT. What rubbbish. You confuse the ramblings of some left-wing commentators with the views of ordinary left-wing voters who retain a love of country as deep as any on the right.
Perhaps you confuse the love of a right wing ideal that you see as patriotism, rather than the love of the diversity and traditions of the rich tapestry of our democracy and cultures that is the fullest meaning of love of nation.
96 - it WAS a serious point. Socialism relies upon people being reliant on state help and under state control. Without that, the inequalities the creed attempts to correct become greater. The Left have a history of trying to exert more ever control over people’s lives, and there has rarely been a better example of this than this government.
Jack, I can’t think of any recent conflict that this country has been involved in in which any significant section of right wing opinion has identified with those we were fighting against. But almost any conflict will find a significant section of left wing opinion that does so (regardless of whether a Conservative or Labour government is in charge).
This summer really is dry isn’t it, yesterday debating whether we should be allowed to watch violent porn today we are having a debate about who is proudest of our boys during the war.
getting back on topic, Lynne feaherstone would be a good bet I reckon, she is pushy, backed Huhne (who would’ve been a threat to the tories) is a moderniser and even if her blog drives me to irritation with its mundanities and ridiculous use of the english Language i quite like her anyway.
x80. “We all hang on every word written by Snowflake5″
Glad you hang on my words Ben! I oppose Right to Buy too. It means the council acts as property developer, spending tax money to build houses, and then flogging them at a loss to tenants. I’m not sure why councils should get involved in loss-making activities like this. Leave the property development to the private sector, and keep council houses reserved so that the council can do their duty to house the poorest and most vulnerable in their district.
Is the above Thatcherite enough for you?
106. Oi. I never said ‘ordinary left wing voters’, did I? Anyway there aren’t many of them left! What I meant by left was the activist left, the MPs, thinkers, pundits, journos. I suspect many of them do have a painful relationship with British patriotism, finding it deeply suspect at best and repellent at worse. They woukld far rather feel guilty - about the Empire, slavery, Dresden, bad sandwiches we forced on the Jordanians in 1912, than feel proud and happy. Guilt gives them a better buzz, apologising even more so, then they feel morally superior.
Orwell skewered this leftwing hatred of Britain fifty years ago. It certainly hasn’t got better since then.
And you know nothing of my intellectual beliefs, you choose to clothe me with some stereotypical vision of Tory values that is all yours.
I wrote extensively about patriotism in a novel, Kissing England. I’ve probably thought longer and harder about what patriotism “means” - especially British/English patriotism - than anyone else here. Including you.
You can buy the novel for onepence, I understand. Quite cheap for an entire education.
108 Sean. Perhaps that’s because too many on the right in military conflicts take the view “my country right or wrong”. Fortunatley in the Iraq war some more astute in the Conservtaive party realized that the conflict was a dog’s breakfast from the start.
How most Tories must wish that they had demured the beat of the war drum in Iraq. But then the Tories were fearful of being out flanked by Blair in a military conflict.
Snowflake
“If you don’t hate immigrants, why are you making stuff up about them?”
I don’t hate immigrants, and I am not making stuff up.
“Why pretend they are taking the jobs of Brits, when they are doing work that is unfilled, why pretend that they supressing wages?”
I am not pretending that that they are taking jobs of Brits. They took mine. Like your partner, I was a programmer, and I lost my position to an Indian who was willing to work at a rate that was uneconomic for a tax-payer. (He was brought here by an agency who rotated their workers back to India every 6 months. They therefore paid no tax.)
“Yes, I’m aware that a plethora of Tories have posted claiming cleaning wages are high, but you guys also claimed the economy was slowing down whem it wasn’t - the only link supplied so far shows an average of £6.7 per hour - and I note that SeanT is ignoring his own link!.”
I know nothing about “cleaners wages”, and haven’t mentioned the subject. You did.
“How do you think Poles and others feel when they hear you spreading mis-information about them with an eye to hounding them out?”
What twaddle! I have no intention of hounding anybody out of anywhere. I don’t spread mis-information. If you read my posts carefully, you will find that they are meticulously constructed and always factual.
“Labour cared enough about the underclass to institute the minimum wage, to increase the LEL threshold, to abolish the N.I. entry fee and to introduce tax credits.”
I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Labour cares about the underclass. All the evidence that I have is that it cares for its own, ie paid-up union members.
If Labour REALLY cared about the disadvantaged, it would eliminate the poverty traps, bring down the cost of housing, etc. Instead, it diverts funding to its heartlands to the detriment of poor rural areas.
“I note that still no one has come back to explain why you opposed the increase of the min wage to £5.05″
I didn’t oppose the increase of the minimum wage. Get your facts straight if you are going to make accusations.
“And why would you want to withdraw the lifeline that is tax credits?”
I have never in my live commented about tax credits, so I would be grateful if you would stop making libellous statements.
“Spare me the fine words about caring for the poor - you only bring them up because you believe you can use them to bash immigrants.”
This is another example of why people are starting to label Labour as the new Nasty Party.
I care because (probably unlike you), I have been poor. I have been ridiculed for my lower-class accent by the toffs when I was interviewed at Oxbridge. I have been in household where we had to beg the power company not to cut us off because we couldn’t pay the bill.
I put in many hours of voluntary work every week. I campaign on behalf of the underprivileged. Do you? I have fought (successfully!) against cuts in public services. Have you?
How DARE you lecture me about “caring for the poor”!
I have a number of Labour activists friends. Now I understand why they drifting out of politics.
56 Benedict-”It is very hard to have a productive discussion with some one who wishes to put the worst of motives on anything we do, even if it is to the good of the poor or anyone else”.
Labour helps capitalists because they (the capitalists) can then generate higher taxes to invest in public services, and redistribute wealth. It took Labour a long time to get the handle on this one, but now that they have- they have become very good managing all things economic. Marxists are great technocrats- a university friend of me tells me that if he wants any bureaucratic job done well he asks one of his marxist staff.
For the Tories the inverse is true- they help the poor for two reasons;
-so they do not rebel and cause civil unrest (as per Heseltine and the 80’s)
-to improve their productivity with a priamry motivation to help capitalists.
The problem with Tory economic (mis)management is that in their idolotry of capitalism they have not been able to manage the economy effectively. The market needs regulation, management and control- unleashing market forces creates booms and busts. No good for capilalists or the working classes. The Tories do not do control well.
Immigration presents an intriguing contradiction for the Tories- mass immigration is good for capitalists, but a core Tory instinct to dislike most things foreign conflicts with this. Kind of generating a Tory scizophrenia. Interesting to read how this is playing out- but helping the working classes, please….
108 - there are Conservatives (very many) who think it was a dog’s breakfast. But there was no Conservative equivalent of George Galloway, or Respect, who act as apologists for our opponents.
“Marxists are great technocrats”
Is that why the Eastern bloc was so effective?
fisked
111 seanT. If we “know nothing of (your) intellectual beliefs” it’s certainly not for the want of you posting them.
You may have written about patriotism, but I’ve served it and seen it in action, including the deaths of colleagues. I need no lessons from a rampant belicose armchair general to tell me the meaning of, let alone cost of patriotism ….. it’s written in my memory till the day I die.
x13. Once-bitten - I’m sorry you lost your job. But if you hadn’t been replaced here, you’d have been replaced by outsourcing directly to India. This activity cannot be banned. It’s part of the working of the global economy, part of being in the WTO. no government anywhere will withdraw from WTO obligations. I hope you’ve found another job - contractors rates in programming are currently rising quite fast, indicating that demand is greater than supply. In any case programmers cannot be described as “underclass” in any way.
I’m glad to hear you support both the minimum wage and tax credits.
115 Sean. There were plenty of “apologists for our opponents” in the thirties. You’ll recall many of them sat on the Tory benches and even in government !
RE 114, Tyson, you have not answered my key question, which is why should I be ars*d to discuss anything at all with you, if all you do is assume that we only have bad motives for anything we do?
Answer that question, and may be there will be a point to a discussion. At the moment I can’t see one.
Not many, once war had broken out, though.
118. Hmp! I respect your service to this country, of course. Read my original post about the Battle of Britain!
But don’t go calling me a blinking armchair general. As regular readers know - surely inoluding you - I’ve seen war. I was kidnapped in southern Lebanon, held at gunpoint by Hezbollah, while simultaneously being strafed and bombed by the Israelis. I’ve also seen and heard people die - I heard the screams as the Isreali bombs hit, I saw the aftermath.
I know what war does. I’ve also been to Bosnia, Beirut and Belfast during their respective troubles -I’m a bloody journalist.
So don’t go pulling rank on me about armchair generals.
Rant over. We must agree to disagree on the lack-of-patriotism in the left!
120/122: There were quite a few - until 1940/41 - who kept their heads down, and some who were in back-channel discussions for a compromise peace. One, Archibald Maule Ramsay (Con, Peebles) was detained under the Defence of the Realm Act from 1940 to 1944 for promoting Nazism and Nazi propaganda broadcasts. He was a loony anti-Semite - but his ‘discussion groups’ etc had distinguished members in the 1930s. See Martin Pugh ‘Hurrah for the Blackshirts’.
114 - immigration is also complicated for the left since many of those at the bottom who are most adversely affected by new immigration are black. (Related — The Voice newspaper’s front page complains East European immigrants are being favoured over Black Commonwealth immigrants; conversely, every issue of Country Life has articles praising Polish craftsmen.)
Another problem (while we’re generalising) is that whereas immigration is good for Britain, it is bad for the places people emigrate from.
I’d certainly back Featherstone.
Yes, Ramsay was an interesting charcter. He put forward a bill in 1944 to make Jews wear yellow stars.
122 Sean. Sorry Sean, there were plenty in Conservative ranks willing to sup with the devil, even after Winston became PM in May 1940.
The moral is that the meaning of patriotism is not war and support for conflict but supporting and cherishing the beliefs that made us the nation we became and that includes preserving the rights of the like of Galloway, to the extent that we lay our lives down in the service of our nation as our forbears did.
123 seanT. If you’ve seen war you’ll realize that patriotism isn’t the preserve of the right anymore than poverty is the preserve of the left.
Real patriotism in our democracy is the preserve of us all and not just the flag waving absolutists of the right.
x25. John, Poles are only coming here because unemployment in Poland is at about 16%. So if they remained in Poland, they’d just be sitting at home claiming dole. It’s actually better for Poland that they come here, get jobs, get off the Polish social security rolls (lessening the drain on the Polish treasury), earn money, and hopefully pick up languages, skills, new ideas, a insight into how complex economies work, so that when they go back they are armed with both capital and knowledege to start something in their economy. We get labour, tax paid, and hopefully contacts that will serve us well in the future. It really is win-win, but fear means that people can’t see it.
128. Fair enough. But I think you are misconstruing me. I never said that leftism and patriotism are mutually exclusive. That’s clearly preposterous - there’s nothing to stop an avowed communist from also having a healthy love for and pride in his tribe, his people, his country’s landscape, history, character, achievements, etc.
Indeed some of the greatest British patriots have been Left. And why not, the British have also played a large part in the noble emancipation of the working man down the years.
What I am saying is that the modern left has purposely abandoned this tradition - in pursuit of some strange internationalist multiculturalism, where flagwaving of any kind, any peep of pride in country, is perceived as fascist/racist or, worse of all, vulgar and common!
I think class neurosis lies behind a lot of Guardian-reader difficulties with patriotism - cf all those Guardian articles during the World Cup, reviling the “fat, racist, tatooed, white van men” who sported England flags.
RE 122, SeanT I have to agree with JackW at 128 on this one.
Snowflake - since you keep banging on about it, I’ll hold my hand up - I was against the minimum wage. This isn’t because I was some cigar-puffing monocle-and-top-hatted mill owner; I was a student at the time and my income came from delivering pizzas for £3 an hour. I figured that the economy wasn’t strong enough to force the cost of delivering pizzas up to £5 an hour, and that the imposition of the minimum wage would have forced up unemployment, especially amongst those like me who couldn’t actually register as unemployed. I believed it would have led to a reduction in the number of jobs. If this didn’t happen, I thought, it would lead to inflation, as those whose income was currently the minimum wage demanded more to pull them up above pizza-delivery income.
Now I’ll admit it - I was wrong - this didn’t happen. We can treat the unemployemt figures with scepticism, but I think we can concede that there are now more people in employment than there were then. (Anyone got any figures? I haven’t).
But the point is - my opposition to the minimum wage wasn’t in order to grind down the poor, it was the reverse - I thought it would put the poor out of jobs.
And the other point is - if you’re so sure that wages are increasing anyway, and that it’s difficult to recruit people, then the minimum wage is an irrelevance. If we’re paying far above the minimum wage for cleaners, we don’t need legislation to enforce it. The legislation will only start to bite when we go into a recession - at which point, the presence of the minimum wage will start to put people out of jobs.
And the other point is - what do students do in the summer now? It’s a long time since I had a pizza delivered by anyone British.
RE 129, Snowflake, how does anyone know if all the Polish workers comming here were on the dole there?
The same argument applies to third world countries where their skilled health workers are comming here from jobs there, causing a brain drain.
Ireland suffered from a massive and continual bran drain until it joined the EU etc. the SNP claims the same for Scotland.
131 Benedict. You’ll be thrown out of the tufty club for supporting me !!
Snowflake, on the immigration/wage deflation issue would you mind answering Sean fears post on the other thread quoted below:
Snowflake, are Joan Ryan, Frank Field, and John Denham all lying when they speak of the adverse impact on wages of mass immigration in certain sectors?
Is your government being stupid when ministers express concern that the availability of cheap labour in certain sectors makes it harder to get unemployed people back to work?
Yes or no?
Or my other one:
RE 335, Snowflake, where YOU live, how much can YOU hire a cleaner for to say do 2 hours per week in your house?
Are the people like Anthony Little or Tabman lying?
133. The Polish central bank certainly doesn’t think so. It has been arguing recently that emigration is increasing wage pressures in Poland by exacerbating skill shortages.
Did anyone see that drama on BBC2 last night at 9 PM, shoot the messenger?
Very interesting take on things.
seanT @ 130 — I fear you are right that there are some intellectuals, including Blairites, who despise and distrust the white working class English, who they suspect are drunken, racist thugs. It’s OK to laugh at chavs and pram-faces.
What they miss about flag-waving England supporters is that it is not a white phenomenon: David Beckham has done more for race relations than the CRE.
The paradox you miss is that the Labour-voting working classes are patriotic, which is another reason the elite despise them.
114 To ‘New Labour Tory’ Tyson.
You have now proven the New Labour is now MORE capalist/Thatcherite than the Tories themselves. I suppose the Tories will now regard themselves as the new centre left party. Blair may have outflanked the Tories by moving Labour to the Right, meanwhile David Cameron has outflanked Blair by moving the Tories to the Left. Once the worldwide recession starts, New Labour will be caught out, just like the previous Tory administrations were and unlimited immigration will really hurt Labour big time, but will Labour be given a third chance? Doubt it, I think political future belongs to the Nationalists.
137 Benedict. Missed that, but managed to squint again at Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on BBC4. Excellent series, continuing this week. Thoroughly recommended.
RE 140, JackW Saw it first time around. Yes it was good. I generaly like Sir Alec.
Regarding patriotism.
The problem is that some have tried to colonise the term for themselves, attempting to do make it refer to a narrow set of views. The only way that this can be perpetuated is for these people to try and deny its use to others.
One constant is the coining of phrases to describe something which are created to refer to the opposite of patriotism, further reinforcing the above.
You can spot it a mile off.
It’s a shame but the term patriotism has now been rendered meaningless because of this colonisation. Foe me, what is patriotic is wanting what is best for the good and reputation of your country. Try to explain that it is patriotic to oppose our role in the middle east and just watch the feathers fly though, mainly from those who I referred to at the top.
128 - “….there were plenty in Conservative ranks willing to sup with the devil, even after Winston became PM in May 1940….”
Jack, OK an historical point, but I’ve read quite widely on that period and, even allowing for the RAB/Chips Channon, sue for peace brigade in May 1940, I haven’t yet discovered any reputable historical source for your contention that “plenty” of Tories were essentially pro Nazis. What is incontrovertible is the ‘revolutionary defeatism’ of the small but influential Communist Party following the Molotov-Rippentrop pact….who instantly discovered patriotic zeal, er, after the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union in 1941.
x32. Cookie, the main argument for the minimum wage is as follows:
Scenario 1: If you go for the situation that Tories want - no min wage, and no free movement of people, then as your economy grows and labour supply gets very tight (due to population restrictions), wages get bid very high, causing price inflation, which then gets dealt with by interest rates ratchted high enough to deliberately induce unemployment in order to ease price inflation, - in other words you get endless cycles of boom and bust.
Scenario 2: you ease labour supply and to reduce wage inflation, you have free movement of people. But without a min wage, wages can get pushed too low, and the govt ends up subsidising people with income support, and others may simply drop out of work thinking that benefits are better.
Scenario 3: you have free movement of people, combined with a min wage, which puts a floor on how low wages can fall. Here is the goldilocks scenario - you can get sustained economic growth without overheating, which means the central bank doesn’t need to deliberately interrupt growth, but the bottom paid get supported by the stat min wage. It’s the fairest of the three situations, as you don’t hurt some people with inflation and unemployment as in scenario 1 or hurt the low-paid and have high social security payments as in scenario 2.
x36. Well overall unemployment in Poland is about 16%, youth unemployment in places approaching 30%. Poland hasn’t helped itself by letting the zloty get too strong compared to the euro.
x35 Ben - I’ve already answered your points ad nauseum on the other thread, including the one about John Denham’s opinions. It’s clear to me that you are opposed to immigration at all costs and will latch onto anything to bolster your argument - including 7/7, Saudi, the poor are “orphans” and “abused” and “don’t have strong family backgrounds” and hence particularly vulnerable to immigrants, that this hurts Poland, that Poles are taking the jobs of Brits, that that cleaning wages were double what they are now etc etc - have I missed any out?
The data shows that the economy is continuing to create jobs and to absorb workers. The data also shows that wages excluding bonuses, are growing at 3.8%, and that the average cleaning wage has gone up from £4.1ph in 2002 to £6.7 per hour today. You don’t wish to acknowledege any data that contradicts your beliefs. It’s like arguing with a religious fundamentalist.
Sean T,
I think where I’d agree with you is that Patriotism has a strong emotional undercurrent for the right whereas Internationalism provides the equivalent for the left.
Lefties can be patriotic but we certainly dont tend to inhabit the swivell eyed extremes of the right. Consequently Righties do embrace internationalism but seldom in a Dave spart bleeding heart way.
Generalising madly, I’d say this is intertwined with both outlooks. In a social justice sense Lefties are not likely to be as patriotic because we believe society is unfair as it is and can be changed for the better, Conservatives take the opposite view and so are unlikely to find common cause with others organising to change their society.
144 - Ad nauseAm - we must strive for rigour at all times.
128.
Well said Jack.
Excellent line,”real patriotism in our democracy is the preserve of us all, and not just the flag waving absolutists of the right.”
Seant you are always intresting, thought provoking, and controversial, which I respect.
But don`t generalise about,who loves this country the most, from what ever political party.
It demeans you.
136- Fred. There is a story on the BBC website about Poland having to import farmworkers from Russia and Turkey as they are running out of people. Poland has lost a million people since it joined the EU.
Today I went in to Crawley, just inside West Sussex, and had lunch at the Burger King in the shopping mall. They had leaflets advertising job vacancies UP TO £4.80 per hour start rate.
Couldn’t spot a British person working there. So Snowflake5, does the minimum wage not apply to migrants then?
RE 144, Snowflake, can you just tell me if you think John Denham, Frank field et al are talking b*ll*cks or not.
Yes or no.
Secondly, how much do you see home cleaners advertised for in your area, rather than in a report from the low pay unit?
145, 147. Guys, I’m not trying to get into a who-can-pee-highest-up-the-wall competition, to prove who ‘loves the country most’. That would be absurdand embarrassing, and anyway I’d win. I was really good at school.
No what I am trying to say is this - while lefties are, as I mentioned before, perfectly capable of being patriotic, indeed in some ways more likely to be patriotic (fraternity and all that), your side of the spectrum, New Labour, does seem to have been taken over by an unsavoury bunch of neurotic self-haters at the top, men and women for whom the words Union Jack, Queen, Empire, Flag, England, Pride, White, Battle of Britain, Sopwith, Raleigh, Rourke’s Drift, Kipling, Elizabethan, Drake, Agincourt, Waterloo, Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Celtic, Hengist and Horsa, Housman, Queen Mother, Empress of India, Raj, Beowulf, Synod of Whitby, Alcuin, Sceptred Isle, Henry V, Longbow, Longshanks, and Putney Debates are somehow “dirty”.
This is a shame.
132-Cookie
‘And the other point is - what do students do in the summer now? It’s a long time since I had a pizza delivered by anyone British.’
Snowflakes proposal from last week was they get a bike and go round selling ice creams,until they get prosecuted by Health & Safety.
Lots of easy solutions on cloud 9!
143 Truer to say there were those who were defeatists, rather than pro-Nazi. Ramsay’s beliefs were not mainstream within the Conservative Party.
WRT Galloway, I believe there should be no legal restriction on his right to side with anyone he chooses. But that doesn’t mean I have to believe he’s a patriot - when the evidence suggests otherwise.
Back to the betting………
The question is what will be the effects of “our largest immigration numbers” be on the outcome of the next GE?
The people who will be most affected through no wage increases or even decreases (such as Soton builders) are the working C1’s and C2’s. They will also see increases in their rental costs and house prices because there is an increase in demand for something in limited supply (short term).
This is the core of the Labour vote. For Gordon that could mean that the longer he leaves it to take over and then call an election, the worse that the level of dissaffection gets.
Surely he needs to act quickly and become PM before Xmas and call an early GE next spring, before the full efects of this massive surge in immigration starts to really bite?
150
Hang on a minute Gordo has or was doing his ‘Britishness’ bit,the Union Jack flying from public buildings etc.mind you when Fox mentioned that in his conference speach last year he was ridiculed by the left.
Seeing as the piece is about the Lib Dems I thought I would link in this interesting take on CK and his legacy from the Speccie. It is well worth a read http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/the-week/24879/charles-kennedys-true-legacy-is-the-transformation-of-the-conservative-party.thtml
So does that mean Samuel Johnson was a leftie too?
RE 153 HF, Also calling a spring election would get around the boundry commision issue.
It will be interesting to see what the effects of immigration will be. Under the Conservatives immigration was around 50,000 per year, well within the ability of the economy and society to absorb. That has now gone hay wire.
It is interesting that during the whole of the Conservative government there were always more Monster Raving loony councillors than BNP ones.
Seant,
Can`t believe ,many on the left would call the putney debates dirty.
Unless you mean the army council only considered men, for votes.
Also the great leader Cromwell, turned down the chance to be king, eventualy.
153/57. Labour candidates selection for the majority of seats should start in May 2007. So a spring 2007 snap election looks very unlikely.
And if you think Labour is the position to call a snap GE in 2007, you don’t have much faith in Cameron
148 Darren the National Minimum wage for 18-21 year olds is less than £ 4.80 an hour . As you ought know unemployment in Crawley is virtually nonexistent and it is certainly an area where immigrants Poles et al are essential to keeping businesses going .
157, the BNP vote has gone from 3,000 in the local elections of May 2000 to 238,000 in this year’s local elections.
Really, tha main difference is not between left and right its between relativists and absolutists. The former are more to the left and the latter to the right (although there appears to be no concrete reason for this spread).
It’s why the left often describe the right as simplistic and why the right decry the left as being intellectuals.
A right of centre relativist could do very well regarding votes (or a left of centre absolutist), the thought process of one view creating the results of the other. Has Blair succeeded by being one of these? If so, which?
150.
2006:
Her ongon Seant ricsian on PB.com, 7 simle he feaht. 7 won, oþþe wiþ Angelcyn, oþþe uuiþ Walas, oþþe wiþ Peohtas, oþþe wiþ Scottas
62 - ‘the’ and ‘it’s’
143 John O. By “sup with the devil” I meant the “sue for peace brigade” that you noted rather than the small group of overtly “pro Nazi” that you thought.
Even Chamberlain in his final year conceded how duped he had been by Hitler and that his own laudable desire to prevent another Great War was misplaced when faced by the evil that the Nazis represented.
163. Fool. Idiot. Cretin.
160.”As you ought know unemployment in Crawley”
1,116 Jobseeker’s allowance claimants in Crawley (2.1% of the active working age population). The 472th constituency in the country
Snowflake.
I didn’t say that I approved of the minimum wage or tax credits. I said that I had never expressed an opinion on them. As it happens, I do approve of the minimum wage.
Concerning tax credits, I have no strong opinion, because I don’t know enough about them. I have heard lots of hagiography and seen lots of mud thrown. I haven’t actually heard either praise or criticism from those who really matter, the recipients. Until I know more, I will say nothing on the subject.
There is no question that as a nation, we have grown wealthier since the low-point of 1992. The Tories put in place the fundamentals, and GB had the sense/luck not to upset them.
Everyone in Britain “has been lifted by the rising tide”. However, the gap between rich and poor has grown. (Inevitable given the economic policies followed over the last 15 years.) I’m not going to attack that growing gap, because the poor are far better off than 20 years ago. However, we need to recognise that there are segments of society who have missed the tide, just as there were under Thatcher.
In the 1980’s, those segments were predominantly in industries that went global and then emigrated to the Far East. Today, it is in the service sector, where low-paid workers are coming to Britain and competing with the existing workforce for jobs.
If the economy grows fast enough to absorb those extra workers, then nobody suffers. However, that would require the economy to grow at more than its trend rate. I see no evidence of that. One would therefore expect unemployment to rise and employment to do likewise, which is what we see.
Personally, I have no strong views one way or the other about immigration. I can see its upsides (keeping down inflation in Britain, reducing unemployment in the home countries, boosting the home economies by remitting money back home, etc.) I can also see downsides (brain-drain in the home countries, reduced income for the poorest section of British society, pressure on housing in Britain, etc).
The only thing that winds me up is when people start trying to suppress comment on the subject by slinging accusations of racism about. Sure, we’ve got some racism in Britain, probably in every Party and every segment of society. However, it is not the majority, and should not be used to gag dissent.
158. The left must surely despise the Putney Debates and all that happened there. Coz the Debates were chaired by Cromwell - who as any lefty fule kno, was a genocidal killer of the Irish.
For your modern lefty, these alleged crimes overshadow anything else to do with Cromwell, the civil war, etc.
Basically the left despises all historical figures from British history apart from maybe the Tolpuddle Martyrs, and I understand a couple of them were wife beaters, and one liked pornographic woodcuts which demean wimmin, so they’re out the window.
Similarly, all modern political figures are tainted for the left, except Nelson Mandela, which is why they go so slavishly over-the-top about Nelson, trying to install seven million statues to him in every town centre. Woe betide them if it turns out Nelson doesn’t like gays. They’ll have no one left.
160-Mark. Oh I see, you get round it by just not employing anyone over 21 and there is now need to now given the endless supply of young migrant labour.
‘Unemployment’ may be ‘low’ in Crawley but I bet you the income support claiment count is high.
161-Sean Fear
Apart from Barking & Dagenham,any data available regarding former party allegiances of these new BNP voters,it seems an enormous increase.
165,
The dominant Liberal/conservative concencus of most governments in power since 1922.
Was that a future war would lead, if Britain won to a socialist britain.
And at the time of a rhineland crisis many believed intervention, would lead to communism, in france and germany, and thats why the russians were keen on it.
168. I’m a recipient of tax credits. So this post might be of interest to Snowflake, too. Seeing as she’s such a fan of tax credits and Gordon Brown’s creation of them. But maybe she’ll accuse me of “lying”.
Anywhere, here’s how tax credits have worked for me.
Two years ago the Inland Revenue wrote to me and said (I paraphrase): ‘congratulations! You are an impoverished freelancer/novelist on a low income, we are going to give you £150 working tax credits every month’.
This was unexpected (even though I was pretty skint) - you don’t expect the taxman to GIVE you money. Nonetheless, I was mightily chuffed and said: thanks Gordon, yes please.
As you would. Right?
I got about £2k in total and then it ended. Because my income went up by a few thou. Fair enough, I thought. No complaints. Nice scheme.
A year ago, the Revenue wrote to me again. Er, they said, we’ve overpaid you - can we have all our £2000 back, and quite quickly, or we’ll be forced to prosecute you.
The chain of events bears repeating. The government, without my asking, decided I was so poor I needed money. I was poor, and I needed money, so I took the money - and spent it on fripperies like rent and food. Then Gordon ‘brilliant’ Brown decided that, whoops, he shouldn’t have given me the money, so he’s gonna clap me in irons or sue me into bankruptcy unless I swiftly pay back the money I never asked for in the first place, and which I have now spent.
Perhaps, when they gave me the money, I should have looked at the cash and thought: hold on, I’d better not spend this on rent, because the Inland Revenue are completely stupid and Gordon Brown, the inventor of tax credits, is a Fife-based cretin, and they are bound to ask for it back. I know, I’ll put it in a savings account ready for when they want it, and not touch it.
And it gets worse. Three months ago a different branch of the tax credits bureaucracy wrote to me and said, you are still poor, and now you have a daughter, so we are going to give you child tax credits. These wipe out what you owe us, and we shall now give you £50 every week.
Great! I thought - the problem is solved.
But then a third depertment wrote to me saying You still owe us three thousand and we have reviewed your case and we want our money back now or else. They seem to be unaware that a second department has decided I don’t owe money, and deserve child tax credits. FFS.
So what on earth do I do with the money I’m now getting? I’m too scared to touch it unless a fourth department wades in saying you now owe us £6000 and we are going to deport you.
What a mess. As my accountant says: It’s a useless system. And there are hundreds of thousands of people like me in the same boat, being chased by the taxman, frightened probably, without my verbal skills and education and ability to fight back.
Pitiful, Snowflake, pitiful.
171 - The BNP take votes from all quarters. I would think their stereotypical voter is likely to be ex-Labour or ex-Conservative in an area of Labour strength. The BNP seem unable to make any serious inroad into places with strong Conservative associations. But if they do make a breakthrough in a Labour area, they have no difficulty mopping up the remaining Conservative vote.
x68. The economy is growing above trend. Trend is about 2.2%, BoE revised their estimate for this year to 2.8%. CBI data coming out this month is particularly strong, so Q3 should have posted good growth too. The rise in unemployment reflects last year’s slow-down. Unemployment lags, so it should turn in about Q4 this year.
Also, no one is trying to suppress any comment (if they were, this board wouldn’t be so lively!). But just as there are some people in society who are racist, there are some people on this board who are too. A clue to this is when in the midst of discussing eastern european immigration, they suddenly bring up 7/7, which was carried out by British born and bred people, who went to secular schools, not faith schools, who wore modern British clothing, and spoke with British accents, and who weren’t poor at all - they were psychopaths in love with violence seeking a cause. It does no one any good to conflate that situation with immigration from eastern europe, and it is perfectly reasonable to suspect the motives of those who try to do so.
PS did you manage to find another job?
Any thoughts on Livingstone’s latest outburst?
Taking on the CRE is hardly going to endear him to his leftie supporters. In betting terms it makes it more likely he’ll be seriously challenged for the Mayoral nomination next time - surely?
RE 172 SeanT, I think you are making them look better than they are.
173- and of course the taxpayer is having to fund this farce.
Useless Brown is way past his sell by date.
176 Dan. What Red Ken losses on the dogmatic left wing swings he’ll gain on the independent roundabout who regard the CRE as a toss pot quango. Further it burnishes Ken’s credentials as an interesting, almost non political maverick.
Clear Ken hold in the mayoralty.
178. Tax credits are a total farce. The intent was well-meaning, but like so much with this government, they think well-meaning is enough: i.e. as long as the moral purpose is sound (in their eyes) then all will be well, and all the problems will sort themselves out. (You could even put Iraq in this basket).
Anyway. The main problem with tax credits - as far as I can tell, the system is Byzantine - is that they can’t cope with self-employed people whose earnings vary greatly (as mine do). When I pointed this out to the taxman, they told me - You should tell us every time your income changes. But my incomes changes daily. So I have to call them every day? Hello, I’ve had another cheque?
Even the people who administer tax credits are embarrassed by them. If you ring them up they sound very uncomfortable and shifty. And the other day the Revenue actually sent someone round to my flat to get their money back. but he was the most ineffectual debt collector I have ever seen - he came in and shrugged and said I’m sorry the system doesn’t work, I hate doing this, I know it’s not your fault, my job is terrible, persecuting people for money we gave them…
Incredible. I ended up feeling sorry for him!
46 They certainly won’t ALL be !
170 No the Income Support Claimant Rate is not high in Crawley Darren see Andrea’s post above . Because of the proximity to Gatwick unemployment in Crawley has always been amongst the lowest nationally even when your party was driving it up deliberately .
You ought to know that there are different levels of National Minimum Wage depending on age .
Did you walk around Crawley with dark glasses on and not observe how prosperous the town is ?
181 Tory Boy.
Welcome back …. long time no hear … how goes it ??
176, 179, Surely Livingstone’s outburst will increase his ‘lefty’ support by attacking Trevor Phillips’s (commendable) denunciations of’multi-culturalism’. There’s obviously bucketfuls of loathing and venom between the two as Phillips was Dobbo’s Deputy Mayoral candidate in the great kamikazee campaign. Then Phillips was elected Chair of the GLA. Personal internecine feuds….don’t ya just love ‘em.
182- Mark. Andrea’s numbers were for job seekers allowence. I’ve yet to see the numbers for income support. I have seen some child poverty numbers and they are on the high side when unemployment is low. I think is was something like up to 30% in some wards.
The tax credit system could only have been designed by someone with no expererience of business and how to make things work in the real world . It is the kind of centrist state planning that sunk the soviet union . The whole process is so value destroying . Some limited good intentions and then after that a disaster. Unfortunately it seems we can look forward to more of this - good for employment prospects in the government sector though !
Very well thank you Jack as I trust things are with you ….
Have been avoiding commenting due to the amount of time it was eating up as well as the fact I was p****g into the wind of so many circular arguments (not saying that I was right - only that the arguments were circular !!)that I thought I’d take a break.
Bit like War of the Worlds though, I’ve been watching you all, making my plans …
Clearly difficult for anyone to argue against my leader’s Administration of the Party in the current climate in opinion poll terms, so I won’t bother, other than to say it will be interesting to see whether it is actually a pro Cameron, pro Conservative, anti Blair or anti Labour thing when the changeover finally takes place.
Can’t wait for my chance to vote on ‘Built to Last’ !!
Take care/regards to all.
185. Crawley average household income is around £28,254.
Out of the 354 districts in the country (1 being the most deprived/354 being least deprived) Crawley is ranked 259th for employment and 222nd for income.
Broadfield ward is among the most deprived wards in West Sussex
169,
Sean thought you were singing also free Nelson Mandela at the concert along with Kinnock, right fist in the air.
Cameron states Thatcher was wrong, so thought he was now a hero of the right.
185. DC, according to the 2001 census the Crawley people “On state benefit, unemployed, lowest grade workers ” are 11,051. The 13% of the over 16 population (the South East average is 13.4% and the English one is 16%)
Is Nelson Mandela a hero of Dougie Smith’s?
190- Thanks for all the info Andrea. It will be interesting to see if the unemployment numbers rise or stay the same or even fall in the next year or two.
x75 - “They were psychopaths in love with violence seeking a cause” - I agree. There are perfectly valid arguments to be had about immigration, and about multiculturalism, and integration of minorities. But you can never rule out the people who are just nutters. (cf fin de seicle anarchists and the hysteria which surrounded them).
RE 175, Sorry Snowflake, are you saying I am racist?
189. Mandela is a dignified, decent and intelligent man - courageous too - and he has steered a deft path in the minefield of post-apartheid politics.
Cameron is probably right to make a point about rejecting Thatcher’s ‘terrorist’ remarks’; I wouldn’t have thought of it myself - but Cameron is the politician and he seems to know what he is doing.
Where I part company with the left re Mandela is their absurd idolatry of the man - to the extent of wanting two statues of him in London. Does anyone else have two statues? Any Brits? Get a grip.
Likesay, I think Mandela is a kind of touchstone for the left. These days the left and New Labour especially finds itself on the wrong side, morally, of many arguments, or at least in the dubious and grubby middle - just think of Iraq, immigration, multiculturalism, Islamist fellow travelling etc - so they look back on the moral certainties of their youth with regret and nostalgia, and wish to relive it by lionizing Mandela. And perhaps their nostalgia is understandable, given the sad straits they are in now.
Tony Blair returns with an initiative to get earlier intervention in bad family situations.
Never mind the proposal. Is this idea, so quickly after he came back from holiday a sign that he’s refusing to go in a hurry? Business as usual Tony?
194,
I,
Woul`dnt call you that Benedict.
Extremley partisan maybe, but your not alone there.
195.”Where I part company with the left re Mandela is their absurd idolatry of the man - to the extent of wanting two statues of him in London. Does anyone else have two statues? Any Brits?”
Prince Albert has a statue: one in Kensington Gardens and one at the center of Holborn Circus.
But I’m confident that my petition to get rid of Prince Albert to place a statue of Dobbo in Holborn circus will be successful
RE 144, Snowflake, You said:
“Scenario 3: you have free movement of people, combined with a min wage, which puts a floor on how low wages can fall. Here is the goldilocks scenario - you can get sustained economic growth without overheating, which means the central bank doesn’t need to deliberately interrupt growth, but the bottom paid get supported by the stat min wage. It’s the fairest of the three situations, as you don’t hurt some people with inflation and unemployment as in scenario 1 or hurt the low-paid and have high social security payments as in scenario 2.”
Well, this seems to me to have a few flaws.
1. Economic growth occurs, but the majority of people seem to be feeling no better off.
2. A growing population will cause inflation in the cost of accomodation.
The combination of the two will lose votes.
143 - there were plenty of Labour party members and representatives ready to sup with the evil of the Soviet Union when it was the greatest threat to our nation!
198. Very impressive. Andrea, you really should enter the world Googling Championships.
198 - There’s a putto in a mural at Hampton Court Palace that’s the spitting image of John Prescott.
I would have thought any new Lib Dem MP, particularly one with a small majority, would not want to go for president. It isn’t as if it gets you a public profile like leader.
For someone to defeat Simon they would have to have a sufficiently high profile for members to have heard of them (party members won’t have heard of the majority of the party’s MPs, never mind peers or MEPs). But someone that high profile is unlikely to want to challenge Simon and it is too soon for CK.
Any challenger would either have to just be a name on the ballot paper without any expectation of winning or would have to go public with their unhappiness with Simon (as most party members won’t know there is any discontent) and that is probably the last thing the party needs at the moment.
198. Apparently there are two statues of William ‘Salvation Army’ Booth, as well - both in Mile End! Why am I excited! I don’t know!
195,
Seant would agree with most of that.
Politicians are good at revisionism when it suits or they need centrists votes.
Historians on the other hand can be controversial and rivaled by many.
Like A Taylor whose analysis I d`ont share,states that Hitler did not want world war, he was just playing a high stakes game of bluff.
If he had got the Danzig corridor in Poland, and Britain did not declare war, then it would have been avoided.
198. They are also rumours of two London statues to George II, though I haven’t pinned them down yet.
And people say commenting on political websites is a waste of time!
Yokel “Tony Blair returns with an initiative to get earlier intervention in bad family situations. Never mind the proposal. Is this idea, so quickly after he came back from holiday a sign that he’s refusing to go in a hurry? Business as usual Tony?”
No, its just that spending time with his family has given him sympathy for other bad families.
RE 204, Why are you so excited SeanT? Because William booth was British and Prince Albert was not?*
* Actually if he was a decendent of the electress of hanover, then according to the Accession act of 1701 (or was it 1700) then he was.
Has anyone heard Livingstone’s disgraceful comments about Trevor Philips? He said the guy’s on the road to joining the BNP. That’s disgusting even for Ken! He needs to be given a sharp kick up the backside for that.
If I was a Britsh exporter I wouldnt want to read the BBC news website front page. Apparently donors pledged $940million dollars or supposedly £494 in good old Sterling to rebuild Lebanon…thats a very strong pound…by such reckoning I got a about about a million dollars or two in change, I’m rich!
RE 197, Thanks for that Dez.
200 - Remember Kronstadt !!!!!
208. Not everything I say has some underhand rightist motivation! (Though much does). I was just satirising my own absurd interest in this most arcane of topics - What men are honoured by two statues in London.
I used to sneer at trainspotters.
Is it me or is Tony Blair actually a bit embarrassing now? Like the drunk dinner party guest, who was witty about two hours ago, and thinks he still is, but in fact he is now just frothing at the mouth and has some pudding stuck to his chin and everyone is wishing desperately he would go home?
Tony, do us all a favour, shut up and go away.
Actually, no, please stay. Please please please please stay. Please!
RE 210, streuth Yokel, So am I. I wonder how the Americans are taking this massive devaluation? Last time I heard £1 bought about $1.88 ish, now according to the BBC it is £1 buys $1,902,834. Impressive. Our exports will be dead, but imports should be cheap.
Of course it could be a typo
87. Received Built to Last ballot today, voted 10mins later on the Internet!
Is Tony the Tories best asset?
The longer he hangs around the better their chances are?
Benedict, Typo? No, no, can’t be. teh BBC are never wrong, never. I’m rich alright, rich! I’m gonna buy me Microsoft with my savings. Anyone got Bill Gates’ number?
214:Not embarrassing - he’s downright dangerous IMO.
I’m sat watching Blair on the BBC news right now. The man has totally lost the plot - I can’t believe the stuff he’s saying. Loopy doesn’t even begin to cover it. Did you see that bizarre look in his eyes?
Like many Conservative/Liberal minded people, I used to be of the opinion that it’d be, on balance, best if Tony Blair stayed on a while longer in order to inflict maximum damage to the Labour Party.
I’ve totally changed my mind in the last 5 minutes - this utter fool has to go now. If Labour recovers in the aftermath of his departure then so be it - that’s a high price worth paying because I honestly don’t believe that the UK can afford even another month of Blair in Downing Street.
He’s really frightening me now.
219. Take your point, Blair is a monstrous loon with mad bulging eyes, but I still think its better for us if he stays. I don’t think he can do much more damage to the country than he already has, and every millisecond he stays in power shouting like a wino on a bus, then we gain votes.
But yes he was positively spittle-flecked this evening. If he weren’t PM you’d turn the camera off, out of respect for the deranged.
198 Andrea - George II has two statues in London also - one by John Michael Ruysbrack at Greenwich (erected 1735), and one by John Nost the elder in Golden Square, Soho (erected 1753). Interestingly both statutes show him in Roman dress… not sure why though.
Do I win £5 for being really obscure?
221 - but as SeanT’s original request was for a Brit with 2 statues in London, George II is unlikely to qualify for that category…
Churchill has a statue in Parliament Square and surely one in the Lobby, and there is one of him sitting on a bench in Bond Street with FDR. So three and counting.
222. Robin, but being King of Great Britain doesn’t make him Brit in the end?
Btw, Miss England attacked Blair.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5300820.stm
RE 218, B*gg*r off Yokel your too late, I have already faxed him with an offer!
Re 225, Sorry yoekl if that sounded a bit harsh, but I had exactly the same idea earlier.
223. Impressive. I think you win. Churchill, of course.
However…. Shakespeare has a statue in Leicester Square. Apparently there is a bust in Westminster Abbey. There are also Google rumours of a statue of him in Love Lane. That’s three.
Is there one of him in the Globe, or elsewhere? That’d be four!
224 - Andrea, he may well have been King of Great Britain (as well as King of Ireland, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg (Hanover) and Archtreasurer and Prince-Elector of the Holy Roman Empire), but given he was born in Schloss Herrenhausen, Hanover and was only naturalised as a Brit due to the Act of Settlement, he is as English as Sauerkraut.
223 Icarus - I thought SeanT wanted someone with 2 statues, not 3! You’re just showing off!
Statue of Brunel at Paddington, and one at Brunel University (which is within Greater London).
229 - and another one at Temple (definitely London). Brunel is the second greatest Brit ever - at least measured by statues in the capital - and by the BBC poll.
I think there may be a Shakespeare bust in the National Portrait Gallery. Not proven yet. If there is - that’s four in London.
RE 228, Yes Robin, Act of succession, making the descendents of the Electress of Hanover British. I got the name of the act wrong in an earlier post.
Isaac Newton has a statue outside the British Library, one in Westminster Abbey, One on the facade of the City of London School and a bust in Leicester sqaure making four altogether.
233. I can still beat that. Shakespeare has an astonishing five, and counting.
Middle of Leicester Square.
Garden of St Mary Aldermanbury, Love Lane
Westminster Abbey
British Museum (bust)
Garrick Club (bust)
and there may be more… Go, Shakespeare!
234. Just a guess, but I suspect that Queen Victoria holds the record. (Very large) statue outside Buckingham Palace, also: University College, National Gallery Annex, Temple Bar to name four relatively easily googled.
Picking up on some comments made during the day…
2 - no idea if there will actually be a contest. If Simon stands it might be a bit difficult for any of his Commons colleagues to stand against him (losing the leadership and the presidency in one year might seem harsh). Equally those who want to see greater diversity at the top of the party might welcome a standard-bearer.
3/8 - I agree it’s difficult for anyone without name recognition to get anywhere. However, some Lib Dems - eg, Council leaders - are well-known in their regions. Or there are some ex-MPs who would still have some clout. Someone who looks like they really want the job of president for a good reason could do surprisingly well.
6 - actually the presidency has rarely been used as a leadership springboard (CK and Simon are the exceptions). But times change. Ming’s here to stay for a few years yet - but clearly a leadership election will happen sooner with him as leader than if Chris Huhne had won.
20 - Broad Street, Oxford - it’ll be a highways authority (County Council) v planning authority (City Council) dispute. Not sure how it gets settled? Best of 3 for ‘scissors, paper, stone’…?
And there will be weekly collections in Oxford. Week 1 = rubbish + recyling, Week 2 = recycling. It’s how all the best recycling councils do it already. Everyone always predicts the world will come to an end - as they did in Tory Cherwell. It rarely does.
32 - you don’t think landlords are still an issue…? Let me show you some casework…
203 - the president might not get a huge amount of media exposure (though more than the average front-bencher - not that any LD front-benchers are average of course) - what does work in their favour is how much better known they will become within the membership of the party. Partly just name recognition, more importantly the rubber chicken / lukewarm quiche circuit.
234, as well as the 4 in post 233, Newton also has:
*a statue on the facade of the Museum of Mankind, Burlington Gardens
*a bust above the entrance to former Royal Society rooms in Somerset House
*a bust at Kensington Palace
*A statuette in Kensington Central Library
That makes 8 - Go Newton!
Thanks Sean - its 2 o’clock in the morning in Qingdao - I cant sleep.
237. I’m a beaten man! 8! I guess Newton was moderately important.
Though David might be right about Queen Victoria….
I retire from the fray and leave it to the two finalists.
237 - *a statue on the facade of the Museum of Mankind, Burlington Gardens - not sure, it may have melted. Part of this building burnt down yesterday, I believe.
As for Victoria, royals don’t count.
This statue trivia reminds me of a well known trivia question… Who is the only non-Royal Brit to be on a UK stamp whilst still alive?
240 - I think David may win with Queeen Victoria, but I’d still say she was a German.
Sir Frank Whittle?
According to the Indy, George Mudie, Colin Challen and Barry Sheerman confirmed they’ll stand again. So Ed Balls should look elsewhere.
Actually Benedict I originally wrote that i was going to buy a ca sino but its a banned word…i’ll give you Gates’ empire as long as I get a free run at the banks but only on the condition that you build a Microsoft theme park where there’s annoying music when you go into it amd every ride breaks down halfway through requiring a reboot.
242 - no! I shall reveal the answer later. When this stamp came out, it was deemed a big breach of etiquette. And it was fairly recently too…
Roger Taylor, drummer with Queen (slipped through on a Freddie Mercury stamp I think).
240 - wasn’t there a guy who was (accidentally) shown over the shoulder of HM The Queen?
246 - yes, that’s right. Like the answer to 247 though!
241. Additionally, five at or near Kensington Palace, St. Thomas’ Hospital, Blackfriars Bridge, the Royal Exchange and the V&A Museum - so that’s nine to date. Almost certainly many more but it’s not that easy googling due to the number of places named after her.
O/T I got my ballot paper for the David Cameron’s statement of principles today. Any guesses as to what the vote in favour will be? There’s really so little to vote against in them that I’d have thought most cast that way will be aimed squarely at him rather than the nominal subject. If one thing’s obvious from it, it’s that if the media are looking for a Clause 4-type debate, then this isn’t going to provide it. I’ll be surprised if there’s less than 92% in favour.
249 - “I’ll be surprised if there’s less than 92% in favour” - a bit like Enver Hoxha’s elections then.
Lib Dem-contested byelections today:
Ceredigion CC, Llanbadarn Fawr Sulien
Party Defending Seat: PC. Cause: Resignation
Tonbridge & Malling BC, Ightham
Party Defending Seat: Con. Cause: Death.
Chepstow TC, Thornwell
Party Defending Seat: Lab. Cause: Resignation
238: Icarus are you a sailor? Was just reading about Ben Ainslie in Qingdao sweeping all before him.
SeanT are you just doing London? There’s at least one Shakespeare in Stratford upon Avon.
[250] Well I should certainly hope that the Tories would be more Stalinist than the Lib Dems (see also post [1])
175 - Snowflake.
The trend rate of growth used to be around 2.2% until the mid-90’s. Since then the trend rate has been around 2.5%. However, as with many similar statistics, it depends when you calculate from. I choose to assume that the rate is 2.5%.
An increase to 2.8% is not enough to mop up the growth in jobseekers. Hence the growth in unemployment.
I did not get any further work in contracting. After several futile months chasing lost causes, I gave up and tightened my belt and started working from home. I started work on software for sale. Describing it as tough is like describing car tyres as chewy.
It was a very painful period, but the pain is now over, just leaving the unpleasant memories. I don’t like to see other people go through similar experiences.
Any policy that deliberately raises unemployment needs one heck of a good reason for causing such misery. The Thatcherites believed that they had no choice, but I believe that more effort could have been made to ameliorate the social effects of mass unemployment. It seems incredible that any Party could invoke such a policy while the folk-memory of 3 million unemployed is still vivid, and Euroland still suffers from it.
240 - Other stamp trivia. William Shakespeare was the frist non-roayl to appear on a UK stamp in 1964, and there’s 5.9 calories in the gum on the back of a stamp.
Oh, and if you’re a vegetarian, you’d better stock licking your stamps. There’s animal stuff in the gum…
[255] Licking stamps? They’re self-adhesive these days…
250. Yep, pretty much. The (abridged) principles are:
- To encourage enterprise in all its forms, in the economy and the community
- To fight social injustice and help the most disadvantaged by building a strong society
- To meet the great environmental threats of the day, to enhance the environment and to increase general weel-being
- To provide first-class healthcare, education and housing that responds to the needs of each individual
- To take a lead in ending global poverty
- To protect the country we love (presumably Britain - DH)
- To give power to people and communities and to recognise the limitations of government
- To be an open, meritocratic and forward-looking party
To be fair, these are fleshed out with some real policies and the statements of principle do go a bit further, but there really isn’t that much for any Conservative to disagree with.
BBC 10 o’clock news seems to be treating Blair’s latest ramblings with the mixture of contempt and amusement deserved.
256. I think Blair jumped the shark tonight. “Arresting fetuses”, indeed.
If Labour don’t kick him out in a few weeks, they are doomed to Opposition. Even if they do dump him, they may be doomed - Iraq rumbles on, horribly.
What happened Tony? To all the promise?
Got my Built to Last ballot today and voted YES via the internet. Marvellous. I predict a Yes result somewhere in the mid-80s - like the Tory vote on Europe there are always some who will vote NO on some hell bent principle. Like the present Mrs Cllr Little who continues to sit on her vote…
54 - 9 firefighters will be “re-educated” in true Communist style
Clearly those men’s rights, beliefs and freedoms are being squashed.
Do not worry about Scots? They are very Labour and very Socialist. They have the policies & government they voted for.
157 - a spring election would get around boundry commision issue - interesting point but Labour knows they are in for a beating and will hang on for as long as possible.
Re unfettered immigration, the point of allowing was to import Labour voters. The British working class cannot be trusted, “they read the Sun and vote Tory!”
It is interesting that during the whole of the Conservative government there were always more Monster Raving loony councillors than BNP ones Anyone of dark immigrant stock knows the truth of it. Under Labour in the 70s it was NF skinheads now it is BNP councillors. Even immigrants vote BNP.
In my incredibly limitied experience I have always found it very difficult to fight the BNP because you cannot explain to people who don’t want to be explained to. People who are angry or who feel let down cannot be convinced by 2 minutes (or even 10 minutes) on the doorstep with me. I dislike BNP voters, but feel that without the oxygen of publicity which Labour seem to want to give them, they’d die out and the voters would return to a home in whichever party (or none) that they supported before.
I met one guy who was fuming about immigration in my ward last May. He was so angry, that he said he was going to write BNP on the ballot paper. I couldn’t talk to him about my critique of the government’s stance on immigration or my personal opinions. He was loud, rude and very determined. On election night there were, oh, say, a dozen ballot papers with BNP written on them. I didn’t like to count as it only upsets me.
Hello everyone, it’s been a while.
I am glad to spot a few people as absolutely disgusted with Tony Blair’s latest attempt at something other than a legacy based on the Iraq war. I seriously cant believe this guy is for real anymore! I watched the news on BBC and their coverage of the story. One member of my family (and not a member of any political party may I add) shouted ‘This bloke is a menace’.
I am all for tougher sentences for those committing crimes. I am also all for combating the socio-economic and household factors that lead people in to criminal activity. To threaten sanctions against the parents of children whose kids have not yet committed a crime is ludicrous. It’s like something out of ‘Minority Report’. What is next? Seriously, charging people for using the bus before they do, just in case!
Does anyone know what Brown thinks of this?
Does anybody watch Armando Ianucci’s time trumpet. It’s a sad reflection of how complacent our society has become if it allows such dreadful rubbish. You would think that this government is packed with liars if you believed this nasty stuff! This government is trying so hard to do the right thing, and the BBC just tries to undermine it. It is dangerous TV, and should be banned.
I shall be writing to my MP and to the BBC to complain. When Mr Blair is trying so hard to win the hearts and minds of the people of the Middle East, this just undermines our efforts.
A more intelligent approach - an idea I offer gratis to all the councillors of housing authorities here, quite irrespective of party - would be to use planning gain etc to achieve gated communities for sheltered housing schemes (Anchor Housing Trust and so on) for which I would expect there would be a huge demand… in which case p’raps you’d better not, after all
[265] Yes I did - I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s all the Tories’ fault for not picking up on the idea I gave them (gratis, of course) of having the governors elected by the licence fee payers. Incidentally, Ianucci said Blair would quit in October next year… my spy in the BBC newsroom thinks it’ll be sooner, Ianucci must be using my Treasury spy (who also tells me that house prices will double in the next 3 to 5 years).
If house prices double in the next 3 to 5 years, I should not be at all surprised. The economic legacy of the last 9 years is fantastic! Much more for the poor - even for those unwilling to work, a secure settlement on public sector pensions, and better GPs as GPs are now getting far better pay.
“It is absurd for the people who say we must stop this continual speculation about the leadership to continue to speculate about it”
264,It is the case,that many undesirables exist-their cry of ‘Police State’ has long since pushed myself beyond caring.Before tonight’s annnouncement by the PM;
in Bournemouth,my home town,it is now becoming common for youth guilty of low-level disorder to be put on the ‘at risk register’ by Social Services-usually this scares peopel concerned ino behaving,for fear of care homes etc.Is this wrong? Well,is it wrong for a home-owner to go out without fear of mugging,petty criminal activity,robbery of their property?Thought not,most would agree.As far as I’m concerned (and living in BOurnemouth,I do not see anything like what some tolerate in big cities-I say; ‘Police state-BRING IT ON!!’–if it takes more prisons,moe care-homes for feral youth,more social workers’ intervention,then,for the law-abiding majority,they can piss in the wind for their ‘civil liberties’
BBCnews24 on line reporting that Tony Blair has given an interview to the times. He has refused to name a date for his departure and says he will not be stepping down at the party conference in September.
“But Mr Blair told the Times: “It is absurd for the people who say we must stop this continual speculation about the leadership to continue to speculate about it.”
Bad night Patrick? with that sort of language you can expect PC Plod round in a few minutes, getting packing.
272,I would’nt say ‘Bad night’ :just saying it a bit too bluntly for many posters here. Anyay,my smile is restored,with the minutae of West Ham’s two massive international signings-sometimes football transcends politics! (P.S I’m with the late Bian Clough on yobs- ‘Box ‘em round the ears-hard!!’Byeeeee!
261 - so you think public servants should be allowed to pick and choose who they serve depending on whether they like their lifestyle or not? What next? Maybe you think conservative muslim police officers should be able to refuse to help women in distress who aren’t “covered up”?
Honestly, some people are made blind by their political partisanship!
Re 244, Yokel But I was thinking of moving it towards Linux, so it would fail to meet your conditions.
274- You are being silly Billy Boy. No one is suggesting these firemen would not assist anyone. This is PC going over the top yet again.
All these calls for Blair to go? Please remember the alternative. It will be much better for us all if we have a smooth transition from Blair to Cameron without Useless Brown messing things up for a year or so.
371. After giving the Times the headline “Blair defies party”, the Guardian appears to have been briefed on the story “won’t step down at party conference but will go sometime next summer”!
Classic Blair, you have to hand it to him. But will it work? Will it diffuse the growing discontent and anger among Labour grassroots and Brownite supporters enough, to get Blair through the party conference without a leadership challenge? IMHO Gordon Brown and the Labour party will be further damaged if they allow this pantomime to go on. They are now beginning to look utterly effectual.
176. DC (the hips don’t lie). :D:
Well, enough trolling tonight. I see you have all gone to bed.
Where is Sage tonight?
I don’t enjoy being patronised by anyone as much as I strangly like being patronised by him…
Nothing on today’s by-elections yet…?
179. Where is Andrea tonight? I was watching the Grampian politics show to see Tommy Sheridan (Solidarity) being interviewed. This was followed by an interview with Colin Fox (SSP). Party has virtually split down the middle, but Tommy showed tonight that he really was the star act of the SSP and I think they will struggle now. I expect the vote to split in Tommy Sheridan’s favour, but they will lose votes to the SNP.
282- Chris. Solidarity? Is he trying to appeal to all the Poles that are now here! He ought to be in England for that as they ain’t going to Glasgow Jimmy!
X81 - Anthony Little - the Lib Dems have gained the Ceredigion by-election from Plaid with a huge majority.
Suggests the nats are finished there in the Assembly elections (like last week in Inverness).
Your comments about the BNP are ludicrous and show what a campaigning moron you are. It’s time you got over your election failure last year and accept that Norman Lamb’s team are now running Norwich South as well which means you’ve got a limited time left as ‘Cllr’ - and of course your innocent wife as ‘Mrs Cllr’.
The BNP are easy to beat if you get off your arse and deal with local people’s concerns.
A good case study is Burnley.
“Where is Sage tonight? I don’t enjoy being patronised by anyone as much as I strangly like being patronised by him…”
“Strangly”, Darren? Surely that was on another thread. Ah, these Tory fetishes of yours….
Time for your beauty sleep, Darren. Otherwise you will end up as yet another ugly Tory MP……
Good news about Ceredigion, though, eh? I thought you would be pleased. Lib Dems and Ming up and up…..
285- Jonny. Yes, good news. We will get him through conference in one piece. In fact OMCS/CDS is going so well I’ve taken it off my signature. I’m afraid I will not be able to tell you when we decide to pull the plug on him but when we do, you will soon be able to tell…
Yes I missed out an e. It’s you Libdems with the strange fetishes such as sandals, beards and woolly jumpers.
No bags or lines under my eyes Jonny, nor botex either! Wait till you see our new intake next time. Won’t be in my league but will look a million times more attractive than the remaining 25 Libdems left in Parliament.
DC - regardless of any nomenclature - you’re a knob.
Actually, no, Darren. “It’s you Libdems with the strange fetishes such as sandals, beards and woolly jumpers.” In general, Lib Dems are not over-concerned about such things - whatever is comfortable is our motto. So the people with hang-ups about sandals etc are you Tories. Fetishes indeed….
And gloating already about the physical appearance of the next crop of Tory MPs, Darren? Not healthy…. Sounds rather as though you have something against all those elderly Tory MPs who are the traditional bedrock of the nation. Don´t you lot call them bed-wetters or bed-blockers or something? Rather unpleasant of you (plural), Darren. No, not nice at all.
I think Lib Dems are not much concerned about physical appearance, Darren. We prefer to have MPs with brains and, if I may mention them, principles and values. Their physical appearance just comes as a bonus.
And are you saying, by implication, that Rik, Marcus and Anthony (Little) have no chance at all of becoming MPs? Only the truly beautiful will be elected? I hope you are right, of course. But that is not kind of you, Darren. Not kind at all.
263 - I agree. I wouldnt like to be a Labour canvasser and trying to defend Labour’s undeclared policy of open immigration to an angry voter. 2 minutes is a long time when in danger of getting your teeth knocked out.
X84 - talking about patronising.
Actually Dan if you bothered to check, the LibDems went from seriously challenging in my ward to being a tragically sad fourth. Oh dear. If I do ever lose my seat it won’t be to the LibDems. As for the North Norfolk LibDems running Norwich South, try telling that to the Council rump left. The internal arguements are fantastic! What is even better is that NS LibDems openly slag off NN LibDems - to me!!!!
X98 - if onyl the truly beautiful became MPs then Marcus, Rik, myself and Adam Ricketts would be there next time! LOL
291- Glad to hear it!
re 284/287- Isn’t that Dan rather bad mannered and foul mouthed. He needs his big mouth washing out with soap and water.
288- Blockers not wetters but amusing post.
84/85 - Sorry to dissappoint any Lib Dems, but the Llanbadarn election was NOT a county council one. It was for the community council (the Welsh equivalent of a parish council) and Plaid didn’t contest. The ALDC site is incorrect.
David @ 249 O/T I got my ballot paper for the David Cameron’s statement of principles today. Any guesses as to what the vote in favour will be? There’s really so little to vote against in them that I’d have thought most cast that way will be aimed squarely at him rather than the nominal subject. If one thing’s obvious from it, it’s that if the media are looking for a Clause 4-type debate, then this isn’t going to provide it. I’ll be surprised if there’s less than 92% in favour.
If that’s a ‘choice’ price - yours at 92.
The outcome will indeed be interesting in the sad world of us
political anoraks as a ‘poor’ result would represent a PR setback
for the new regime.
I’ve discussed this with several other party members that didn’t vote for DC. All have said they are going to vote against it
” To send a message “.
Personal guesstimate is 70-75 vs 30-25, we shall see !
Regards
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