Will you be the PB Political Forecaster of 2009?
January 11th, 2009
Back by popular request to sharpen your forecasting skills
On Christmas Day 2009 who will be…? (50 points for each correct answer)
1. Prime Minister
2. Leader of the Opposition
3. Leader of the Liberal Democrats
4. The Speaker of the House of Commons
5. Chancellor of the Exchequer
In 2009…
(Predictions for questions 6-10 should be made to the nearest percentage point)
6. What will be the YES percentage in the Irish EU referendum?
7. What will be the Conservative nationwide (ie UK) poll share in the June Euro-elections?
8. What will be the Labour nationwide poll share in the June Euro-elections?
9. What will be the Lib Dem nationwide poll share in the June Euro-elections?
10. What will be the UKIP nationwide poll share in the June Euro-elections?
(Scoring for Q6-10: 50 points for correct answers declining by five points for each percent that you are out until zero)
11. Who will be Prime Minister of Israel as a result of the forthcoming Knesset elections? (50 points for a correct answer)
12. What will the level of the FTSE 100 be to the nearest full point at the close of business on 30th June? (100 points for correct answers declining by one point per point out until zero)
For how many days during 2009 will…? (100 points for correct answers declining by one point per day out until zero. For things you think are not going to change enter 365 days)
13. Gordon Brown serve as Prime Minister
14. David Cameron serve as Conservative Leader
15. Nick Clegg serve as Lib Dem Leader
16. Jacqui Smith serve as Home Secretary
17. The “GreenGate” investigation continue without any current members of the House of Commons or the House of Lords being charged
18. Bank Rate as announced by the Bank of England be less than 2%
19. How many days into 2009 will the UK General Election fall? - eg enter 155 if you think it will be 4th June. Enter 365 if you think there will not be a general election in 2009.
What will the Guardian ICM Poll report on the following indicators during 2009? (50 points for accurate answers reducing by ten points for each 1% out until zero points are reached)
20. Labour’s highest percentage
21. Labour’s lowest percentage
22. The Conservatives’ highest percentage
23. The Conservatives’ lowest percentage
24. The Lib Dems’ highest percentage
25. The Lib Dems’ lowest percentage
26. The Conservatives’ highest lead
27. The Conservatives’ lowest lead (or Labour’s highest lead)
Seat losses and gains in the June 2009 elections (100 points for each correct answer reducing by one point for each seat out until zero is reached)
28. Net Labour seats won/lost in the local elections
29. Net Conservative seats won/lost in the local elections
30. Net Lib Dem seats won/lost in the local elections
As before, the competition will be in spreadsheet format, to speed up collating and marking (there were almost 2500 items to mark in the 2008 competition).
The spreadsheet can be downloaded below.
PB 2009 Competition
Do not post your answers in the thread below - please email your completed spreadsheet to:
If you don’t have access to Excel, these links may be helpful:
As always on PB, the competition organisers’ decision is final and no correspondence will be entered into.
Please do not enter predictions in the thread as they will not count
Mike Smithson
Double Carpet
MessageSpace Advertising
Please note that unlike the 2008 competition it is not possible to get less than zero points on a question.
Last year many got penalised heavily in the local election results section because it was possible to get minus numbers.
Re the Prince Harry row, whilst I accept that a senior Royal using the term “Paki” is obviously newsworthy, am I the only one finding myself saying “So what?” about the whole thing?
It was obviously said in jest rather than in malice, and presumably not something the soldier in question found particularly offensive. I actually find it quite encouraging that a senior member of the Royal family isn’t so aloof and totally detached from common folk that he can’t use a term that is actually quite commonly used by a large cross-section of society to this day - rightly or wrongly. I’m sure it’s quite commonly used in the services, like any other form of banter, just as it is by many ordinary people. I quite often referred to my “Paki mates” when I was at school, in their company, and they even used the term themselves. Although I no longer use the term myself, many members of my family, colleagues and friends will talk of “nipping out to the Paki shop” without giving it a moment’s thought, or risk admonishment for using such a term in public. Why is “Paki” unacceptable as a term, yet “Taff” or “Paddy” seemingly ok for most people? (I accept some would find those terms offensive)
Is this another example of the metropolitan political/media elite being out of touch with reality?
1 - I hope you paid the £500 entry fee for the premium service to become the first poster. That should cover the entire cost of the Big Party.
2. Very probably. An issue is that the racism (actual discrimination, violence etc) has been confonfused with use of language which has racist conotations. Very common to come accross people who would use such words, yet are definitely not racist in their actions. The average infantry soldier comes from that kind of background…
1 Surely you could make an exception for Roger?
re 3. Actually John one or two people have been in contact over the idea of a premium service so that they can be alerted when a good betting opportunity is opened up. Generally if some is really good value then it doesn’t last long.
So my thought is to create an email alert for subscribers (I have not worked out a level yet) so they would know something good was possible if they acted immediately.
6 - I just bet the exact opposite of Maggie Thatcher Fans predictions one minute after he makes them.
He should charge !
6, I won’t be subscribing, but will it be your and the staff’s tips, or will it also include posters like HenryG and Andrew for tennis?
Traditional answer to a pb question?
Uh, could someone please give me the main potential Israeli PMs? It’s a shot in the dark, but I’d rather have a low chance than no chance
Four types of poster,Mike.
1.Those that don’t tip and don’t bet….probably the majority and fair enough.
2.Those that do tip and do bet….the lifeblood of the forum of which you are the heart.
3.Those that do tip but don’t bet…I call them ‘The Tory Boys !’
4.Those that bet but don’t tip…..big frowny face.
Also, is the site loading very slowly for anyone else? I’m using firefox, and it’s much slower, for this site, than is usual.
10 - Livni 4/5
Netanyahu 6/4
Barak 7/1
(my made up odds)
I never imagined the day when I would see a swastika daubed on my synagogue, in the heart of a major UK city. However thinking about it, just a few years ago in Finsbury Park London my old ward, a Synagogue was attacked in just that manor, just much worse. Privately police briefed us then it was far more likely to be Muslim yobs, then white extremists.
I have always argued that what happened in 1930’s Germany could not happen in the UK, because of democratic entrenchment, I am now doubtful. The similarities are too eerie, a prolonged financial crisis blamed on prominent Jews, and rising hate.
I hope I am wrong, but would like to pass on my deepest thanks to the police and as force, for their sterling work and for taking the threat to normal order and peoples life’s seriously. More importantly I would like to thank individual officers doing extended overtime, making personal sacrifices, personally getting harmed by fridge hardened lefties and Muslim extremist, each one should get nothing less then a medal.
9. I presume then you are not worried about an increase in the Tory % as they would increase by an amazing amount to get more than the 1 they have right.
13, thanks Mister Henman
13. more like 1/3 Natanyahu 2/1 Livni 40/1 Barak.
9 - indeed!
2: “presumably not something the soldier in question found particularly offensive” - er, the guy was asleep! I accept the point that it can be used as harmlessly-intended shorthand, but if there’s any justification for the Royals, it’s supposed to be that they’re in training for the role from childhood. The remarks (not just that one but the others reported too) show a tin ear, which just isn’t a good thing for anyone colose to the Throne.
Off for the rest of the day, pounding the streets…
Where is the market for the Israeli elections?
I’ve sent my Mystic Meg-like ponderings. Now to see if I can break into the top 20!
Mike disappointed that the Key Question has not been asked. Who in 2009 will have the most first posts on PB. perhaps it could be the tie breaker (Mike and Morus would be excluded!).
Failing that, could Shadsy or PtP open a book.
Slumdog Millionaires
Yesterday, I’ve bet 100$ @ 1.6 that the movie will win the Golden Globe Award of Best Drama.
Mumbai is now one of the main nods in the geopolitical web, and that inane TV show is a perfect metaphor of what’s wrong with corporate life and greed.
http://sports.betfair.com/Index.do?mi=100265638&ex=1&origin=MRL
14. You are wrong. The financial hardships going on are nowhere near the same scale. There is a shedload less anti-semitism present in society. I haven’t seen it blamed specifically on Jews as a group or any real evidence of rising hate. Any comparisons are tenuous in the extreme at best.
On a side note I went to a lecture on ‘Britishness and Terror’ which was very enlightening on the subject. Mentioned how newspapers liked to associate terror with Islam and the associated language with both. The general emphasis on portraying terrorrism as foreign, even when that was not necessarily the case Point in case the relative attention paid to Abu Hamza and David Copeland.
7
Tim, I’ll set up my own premium rate service just for you!
12 Morris Dancer I also use Firefox - not noticed any significant difference in speed.
18 - Nick, the incident in question was 3 years ago I understand. If he’d been particularly offended by the third in line calling him a “Paki”, on film, I imagine he would have made something of it before now…
18. Yes as you know I am a passive republilican! That is I don’t believe the Monarchy and it’s holder being selected by accident of birth right. I am passive about it because the alternative an elected head of state may not be very unifying - I cannot Imagine a President Blair, Thatcher etc being very popular with about 50% of the poulation as surely an estabilished political figure would have to go for the job. Although President Johnson (Boris) or King Newt (Ken) might be interesting!
In terms of what Harry said “He was wrong but I am sure he was well intentioned”. As you say the individual in question was asleep - the other thing after watching the clip was i think Harry was trying to be funny and when one of the Lads. The army is obviously full of trained killers! They are therefore unlikely to be overly PC - I suggest it should have been dealt with internally to the armed forces and who ever leaked it to the media needs reprimanding as it not just affects the Royal family but the services at a difficult time: RE - two theatres of war.
I may be the crusty old colonel here myself, but question 17 might have two interpretations.
The question as put is: The “GreenGate” investigation continue without any current members of the House of Commons or the House of Lords being charged?
Should I be answering the question: how long will the greengate investigation go on for? Answer 30 days.
Rather than my opinion on how long until someone in parliament is charged? Answer 365 days.
Anyone care to give me a hint on the FTSE? I don’t follow the markets, and I’m not too hot on predicting either.
Interesting figures in the Guardian suggesting that the fall in average English house prices is 14.8% which equates to a fall in value of around £29,000 in the last year.
I wonder how that makes people feel who have been celebrating a couple of hundred off the monthly mortgagge repayments. How long will those ’savings’ take to make up for the capital loss? And that capital loss will not reduce the repayment of the original loan either.
I hope I have my sums wrong, but don’t think so.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/jan/06/house-prices-regional-breakdown
29 it will go down a bit then up then sideways, when noone’s looking it will go round in a circle. Over the next 30 years it will rise by a number greater than 1. The value of the FTSE 100 will never go down to 0.
hope that helps, it’s as useful as some of the chartist rubbish spouted on here by the true believers.
afternoon all, what’s the betting that Alistair Campbell and Lord Fop are behind the NOTW publishing a 3 year old video of Prince Harry speaking in the language used by virtually all our armed forces who are the antithesis of leftie PC language. Gets Brown Central and its distastrous handling of the economy off the front page for a week and a chance to “bash the toffs”. Frankly compared to the 2 British missionaries given a year;’s hard labour in the Gambia for “Anti-state activities” i.e. reaching christianity, Harry’s offence 3 years ago is small beer.
2. Generally, “Taff” and “Paddy” haven’t been terms hurled at people during violent racist attacks in recent years.
31
I read somewhere, at least I think I did, that the stock market is usually 18 months ahead of events. Whether this is true any more or was ever true, I really couldn’t say. When thinking about the FTSE this year one has to consider the potential of businesses to make money ie decent profits. Given the evidence of belt tightening going on, I can’t see the FTSE making strong gains (there you are Tim, place your bet NOW)
32 What do you think of Ladbrokes odds on ESW.
Mike, DC: Thank you for the Forecaster quiz, have completed and returned.
At social events over the Festive Season that included various polticians, an interesting scenario was being promulgated.
If Labour does very badly in June 2009, then GB could still be ditched and a new leader appointed, as it was thought that recent evnts have shown that polls can be turned round in six months or less. Wishful thinking or In Vino Veritas?
34. I’ve heard its usually twelve months, but its probably a bit less likely during a finance-led recession, where there is less leverage available for equity markets.
June 2009 for the last three questions?
36 Highly plausible. A new Leader elected over the Summer or perhaps autumn if GB posaibly decided to make the Conference his farewell to his Party could then hold off any pressure for an election until the New Year.
Chamereon played a blinder on the Beeb’s Buggalugs Breakfast program this morning. Tony Blair to a T so he had Mr Ashley eating out of his hands. Liked his decor too.
Useful as a bag of rubber spanners, mind.
“Vote for me cos I’m not him.”
2.
“am I the only one finding myself saying “So what?” about the whole thing?”
Indeed, surely it is a ‘given’ that the young lad is an uncouth eras and always will be. It’s those Ginger genes y’see. Wouldn’t even be allowed into the Bullingdon Bertie crew.
18. Fancy pounding the streets on a January Sunday afternoon. You can’t fault Nick’s keenness I spose.
41 Shouldn’t you be over on Dolly’s Rebutt Blog bigging it up with your other lefty chums? They’ll lap up your Bullingdon Bertie jibes - no one else cares.
40. Cameron this morning. Within a breath of saying that we should be encouraging a culture of saving, he was saying that it should be easier to take out a loan to buy a car. So how do you square that circle?
I was stumped on the FTSE question too as no idea what happens in capital markets - no interest at all - also made a wild guess on the Israeli PM as they are all the same idea and who knows who the Israeli people will choose - I don’t think their is a leftist on the poll list this time …
42. I would imagine many of his colleageus in safer seats begin pounding the streets a couple of days after the PM calls the election, finish at about 7.30 on election day, and then wait for another four years to do it again.
Harry: An amazing number and range of people on TV and elsewhere giving their views on how this meant no harm, and he didn’t intend to cause offence etc. What is the common link? None of them are Asian. Why should Tim Rice’s view on this subject matter? He was on Sky to talk about cricket.
Ask a cross section of British Asians, and the response will be somewhat different, I suspect.
BTW, Have the results of genetic tests on Harry ever been made public, either officially or unofficially, to demonstrate that he truly is 3rd in line to be our next unelected head of state?
31/34. Right, blind guessing it is then. Where’s my pin and blindfold?
That’s my entry sent Mike/DC. First time I’ve done this here game. I wonder how badly I’ll do?
Just got back from the pro-Israel rally in Trafalgar Square. How disappointingly well-behaved it all was. Anybody would thing that those who support Israel are not the mindless thugs and idiots of the pro-terrorist wing.
How are we all playing this tactically? Putting all your eggs in one basket by putting all results in based on how you think it will go, or spread them around so you’re likely to get points whether you’re right or wrong but can’t win big for being right on everything.
Afternoon all.
Not much to comment on the thread, although I too would like question 17 clarified, and that Part 5 applies to the local elections on 4 June 2009 (question here says June 2007! - spreadsheet says 7 May).
OT, why I love sport: as mentioned here yesterday, Carolina was a prohibitive favourite against Arizona. If there was spreadbetting on “margin of victory” available, Arizona buyers will be laughing - they demolished the host Panthers 33-13!
47, in my sixth form days there was a fifty fifty split between Asians and whites. Shockingly, some of the Asians quite amicably referred to each others as ‘pakis’ on occasion.
Were they racist?
Or is it ok for people of one skin colour to use a word in a friendly way but for people of another skin colour it’s verboten?
This is a load of fuss over nothing. He’s a bloody soldier, not a girl guide, and the term wasn’t used maliciously.
Assume questions 28-30 are 2009 not 2007!
43.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much.
52. It doesn’t make logical sense, but it’s the way it tends to work. See the n-word for many examples.
49.
“hose who support Israel are not the mindless thugs and idiots of the pro-terrorist wing.”
There are enough of those on both sides in Israel/Palestine.
50, for what it’s worth I went for what I thought would really happen (although I am slightly cautious which obviously meant I favoured more moderate rather than extreme figures).
47. Come on Prince Harry is very much like Prince Philip in appearance and opinions. That is a very low comment you make with regard to parentage and unproven allegations.
Given the fact it was three years ago I think that it should just be forgotten - I saw one “Young Asian leader” on the box saying Harry should meet a delegation of asians. I think it is folk scape goating Harry for Labour’s war in Iraq and to a lesser extent Afghanistan and trying to make a point about the governments war policy. I notice the leftist Labour posters are quick to denounce the “Paki” comment but not defend the fact he has been to the frontline in Afghanistan & he WANTED to go to Iraq!
@56:
Let’s look at the evidence:
Pro-Israel: Polite, well-organised, peaceful, good-natured.
Pro-terrorist: Hysterical, violent, shop-smashing, police-assaulting.
Spot the difference.
“Prince Harry is very much like Prince Philip in appearance and opinions”
So put em both in the Big Brother House! That way those of us who don’t watch it will never have to hear either again.
59. I love the non-biased language you’re using. It shows you’re clearly an impartial judge.
55, well it bloody shouldn’t work like that.
Why the hell should Prince Harry, who I might add has risked his life fighting on the frontlines, be lambasted by armchair commentators for using a term no-one would care about if he had dusky skin
@61:
I’m impartial enough to know the difference between “assaulting a police officer” and “not assaulting a police officer”.
It’s testament to how wretched the pro-terrorist left have become that even this distinction eludes them.
52. “This is a load of fuss over nothing. He’s a bloody soldier, not a girl guide”
He’s actually a prince, a member of the royal family. You know, those people whose subjects we are. Who we and thousands of ‘paki’s’ pay taxes to keep in the lap of luxury. No one cares about soldiers being rude about british citizens, people care about this soldier being rude. Personally, I couldn’t give a cr*p what he says. The royal family are like a nationalised soap opera, so he’s just fulfilling his job description, keeping the tabloids full. However, I’ve found people’s reactions really interesting.
“Or is it ok for people of one skin colour to use a word in a friendly way but for people of another skin colour it’s verboten?”
Generally context is all.
62. Because life is unfair and the world is often illogical.
For the record I haven’t heard ‘paki’ used other than pejoratively by anyone of whatever ethnicity. But like the n-word it’s the old “I can’t be -ist because I am one” that works across a lot of areas.
61/56.
Mr Coxall lives in a world of his own. I mention the terror inflicted BY BOTH SIDES at the Eastern end of the med - MC talks in a one-sided way about demonstrations in England.
If the Israeli shellings really were targeted at Hamas, how would it be that over a third of the fatal casualties so far have been children? Either it’s a blanket terror campaign or there’s a need for a serious gunnery lesson. Even the BUsh/Blair attacks on Baghdad were more accurate than that.
59. I’ve met hysterical supporters of this war and very polite opponents of it. Besides, just because there are idiots that agree with you doesn’t mean your view is wrong.
I love the fact the LabourList has already degenerated into threats, heavy-handed moderation, libel, Draper having tantrums and throwing hissy fits, lawsuits being threatened, flamewars, trolls, shouting, and general idiotic Labour control freakery writ large.
Well done, Draper, you enormous tit. You’ve made the Labour party look *even more* stupid. I would never have thought such a thing was possible.
Mike - i agree with Witan that question 17 is ambiguous. If the investigation is called off with no charges, is the correct answer still 365?
61. Source?
54 You seem to hold a strange infatuation with Cameron and his Bullingdon Berties. Did you work for the Tories in a previous life, and have an unrequited crush on someone in CCO?
64. Yes but those same tax payers would complain if he did not do a proper job and just bollocksed himself to death and bonked as many slappers as he wanted. Though if he did that I am sure he could get SeanT to ghost write an interesting book for him!
@66:
Because your friends in Hamas use human shields. Hiding weapons caches and shock troops in civilian installations is a well-established Hamas trick.
The launching of civilian-targeted rockets from UN premises is a new one, though just an evolution of what has gone before.
62.
” no-one would care about if he had dusky skin”
By saying that you show yourself to be living a very very sheltered and deluded life. Spouting cliches which would go down well on BNP web-sites which have no bearing upon the generality of British society with which I wonder how often you engage.
Agreed
72.
“he could get SeanT to ghost write an interesting book for him!”
Ghost write? Sean T would want at least two years ‘field research’!
74.
whage slhave, I’m pleased to introduce you to irony. It appears that you two haven’t met before.
73. The launching of civilian-targeted rockets from UN premises is a new one, though just an evolution of what has gone before
———–
link? haven’t heard a confirmed version of that story
58 I fail to see why Harry should be defended or complimented for WANTING to go to IRAQ to do his bit with the forces of British aggression. Whilst I do not wish harm on innocent servicemen who have been ill - used by our government , those who go there of their own accord frankly deserve everything they get.
73.
YOUR friends in Hamas, you mean. For anyone who eggs on Israel to commit war crimes etc is on the Hamas bosom buddy list. I’m surprised you didn’t get a Xmas card.
You actually want to believe that rubbish about all the kids being maimed and dying in ‘human shield’ sites, don’t you? While I don’t doubt that the practice is unknown, neither the raw figures for casualties nor the limited media coverage coming out of Gaza stacks up with this.
There is no way that even modern military ordinance can pinpoint targets in one of the most densely- densely-populated places on earth. Don’t try to kid me that anyone is really trying. It’s pressure-bombing, using population casualties and terror to try to get the Palestinians themselves to effect regime change.
Hamas are another load of right wing religious zeros.
77.
This ‘irony’ claim sounds a wee bit tinny.
So lets summarise the argument - his grandfather uses racist language, so that makes it OK; other soldiers use racist language, so that makes it OK; I’m white, and am not offended, so that makes it OK.
Er, no; no; no.
On the Prince Harry issue; it is totally depressing that there isn’t a thinking sentient being in sight,and that stricture applies to another site I have looked at.
It seems to me that most of you peeps are totally incapable of THOUGHT let alone of ARGUMENT.
You are all stuck in your own pathetic little boxes like glove-puppets,trotting out your little lines as per the script.
Take time out and THINK !
Think about context,think about responsibility…just think.
One canard I wish to dispose of.There is a whole lot of difference between calling someone ‘a Paki’ and calling someone ‘Bruce’.
@80:
I want to see the terrorist organisation Hamas eliminated, therefore I am their friend?
Thanks, Wage. That kinda logic is why I know, no matter how infirm my brain may get with age, I could never become a lefty.
God knows how you think I treat my enemies.
29. Why not look at where it is currently then tak ea guess up or down, your life does not depend on it being right and you hav ethe satisfaction that its your own work.
80 I heard a report earlier that the Israeli enquiry into the 40 deaths at the UN school has identified that 1 out of 3 mortars that was fired at a Hamas position missed its target and hit the school. Some may regard firing non-precision weapons at a target close to a school full of civilians as rather rash, others may think “so what”.
A PAKI?
I really don’t understand why calling someone with Pakistani roots a “Paki” can qualify at all as an insult.
Calling someone “Hindi” who’s an Hindou from India is not insulting; why should any Pakistani be insulted by being called a Paki?
It really is beyond me.
You’re a good man,Martin Coxall ! Always cheering you on.
84. I think it’s pretty clear that Wage Slave meant that the way you advise Israel to eliminate Hamas will only make them stronger in the long term.
Personally I disagree with the argument, but you’ve clearly misrepresented what he said.
33. Get a life its no different , its all down to political correctness, hard to see how a shortening of the word describing where someone comes from can be so bad , amazing how it is never bad if applied to English , Welsh , Scottish or Irish, very selective and typical of how things are viewed in Britain. You never see anything similar in other countries where they are really racist even within their own populations.
87. A word can pick up cultural and social associations beyond it’s immediate meaning. Paki has become an offensive term through it’s usage.
@87:
It may not make any *sense* to you, but that’s the way it *is*.
You can mutter all you like at how unfair it is that people get offended when you throw ‘paki’ and ‘nigger’ around, but no amount of grumbling’s going to change that.
The words, I imagine, will lose their sting over time as a result of effective reclamation efforts, in much the same way that ‘queer’ has already done.
However, ‘paki’ and ‘nigger’ are nowhere near that point yet.
87.Phillipe Magnan.The reason is that ‘Paki’ is a generic term of abuse applied to anyone of brown skin and typically a prelude to a kicking.
I never heard of anyone getting a kicking in the UK and being called ‘Hindi’.
You let yourself down, Phillipe.
92. I take it no sources are forthcoming then.
81. whage slhave: This ‘irony’ claim sounds a wee bit tinny.
Just because you’re a stupid lefty who missed it doesn’t mean it wasn’t there.
91, you might want to tell that to the Asians I went to school with. If a word can gain racist connotations surely it can also lose them if the ethnic group it’s meant to deride start using it themselves?
@93:
You want me to cite a source that shows that ‘nigger’ is offensive? WHAT
87. My last employers were very strongly affiliated to the Labour party and indeed give Labour financial support. One poor Asian lad in one particular office was repeatedly called paki and he must have heard them. They also put really powerful air fresheners round his desk and said again within ear shot that he “Stunk” and cracked jokes about the “Paki” that he must have heard. This country and certain elements of it are always going to use terms that others find offensive, I am afraid the white working class and army are areas where the sort of language and behaviour others find unacceptable will always go on.
Coxall, Nigger is quite different, for it is a pejorative derivative of Negro.
I did not know that in British culture, the word Paki had become, through “usage”, as Mistah G. puts it so well (thanks, BTW), associated with nastiness.
95. Apparently not, see the n-word. Also, dare I ask. How long ago did you go to school with them?
96. Re the palestinian claims about ‘firing from a UN premises’ upthread.
99, well, I was in sixth form so for most it was 7 years, although obviously I didn’t know the lower sixth that well. Similarly ethnic mix in the two halves of the sixth form.
@98:
That’s exactly what happened with ‘nigger’. As with ‘Paki’, it obtained a pejorative sense through connotation of usage, not through etymological denotation; Indeed, ‘Paki’ and ‘nigger’ both started as diminutive forms of words that were not, prima facie, offensive.
98. I have seen in films Black people calling other black people “Niggers”. In Pulp fiction for instance this bloke who gets sexually attacked by another person says he is going to get “some pipe hitting niggers with a blow torch and pliers” to the asailante.
Am I the only person in Britain who saw the headline “Prince apologises over racist video” and thought for a moment it might be the ‘artist formerly known as’?
100:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231167272256&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
95. As I said before, context is all. I call my friends (white and otherwise) all sorts of offensive names I’d never dream of calling a stranger. If a stranger called one of my friends the sort of names I call them, I’d be furious.
There are clearly no absolute laws and rules with language, it’s about what’s appropriate and often that’s just a judgement call.
98 I have heard that in some countries, Paki isn’t considered offensive, it’s just considered an abbreviation of Pakistani, just like Aussie is short for Australian.
However, in the UK it has become rather a common term of abuse for anyone from the Subcontinent, and I would suggest one to be avoided in polite company.
@106:
I frequently call my partner ‘fag’ and ‘poof’, and also him me. I doubt I’d be terribly happy if somebody I didn’t know used it though.
105. “Two residents of the area near UN school that was shelled by the IDF on Tuesday said that they had seen a small group of terrorists firing mortar rounds from a street close to the school.”
Interesting definition of on UN premises there.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054009.html
is an interesting read.
103-I agree with the second part,MC, because I know a little about it but not so sure as you about the first.
Anyway…In the brilliant film Rita Sue and Bob Too(1986), one of the girl’s boyfriends laments “It’s not my fault I’m a Paki.”
He definitely wasn’t being racist but maybe he opened the door a little.
Surely the suggested answer to 19 is wrong. 365 would be 31 December. If you think there will be no election in 2009, the answer should be 366.
@109:
Of course, the IDF didn’t attack the school. It was damaged by secondary explosions from an arms cache that Hamas had JUST SO HAPPENED to have placed near enough to a school that they knew what would happen.
It’s almost as if Hamas know how easily manipulated their useful idiots in the West are, and are deliberately arranging mass civilian casualties as a way to stoke their innate judaeoscepticism.
I want to hate you for being played for a fool by a terrorist organisation, but all I can really manage is pity.
There are a whole list of words that are used for the primary purpose of being disparaging, insulting, or hateful towards a group of people because of their ethnicity or religion. I can’t see where “raghead” could be used in a complimentary way about someone wearing a turban or Arab head dress.
There is another list that are used as nick-names for groups based on country or region of origin, religion, etc. These can also be used in an abusive manner, usually with the addition of other insulting words (you F-ing Cockney C, for example), but where the word itself is not an insult.
Just some thoughts…
the Depression contract has reached 52%…
‘It’s almost as if Hamas know how easily manipulated their useful idiots in the West are, and are deliberately arranging mass civilian casualties as a way to stoke their innate judaeoscepticism.’
You can safely omit the word ‘almost’ there, Martin.
109 see 15.
In the 80s I used to report on various trades union conferences and it never ceased to amaze me that after a day spent passing resolutions condemning racism, sexism, homophobia and discrimination against disabled people, delegates would hold social evenings where comedians would tell a stream of sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. gags to general laughter and applause from delegates.
“judaeoscepticism”
What the hell does that mean? A softer, cooler word for anti-semitism?
119-I always go with ‘Jewhater’ Philippe Magnan because the real Jewhaters on the internet cried ‘foul’ at the usage of ‘antisemitism’, claiming that Arabs are also semites.
As a person who avowedly supports the right of Israel to exist and a Palestine state to exist - I just watch as two sides of extremists - the Israeli government and Hamas battle in Gaza - no one condones missiles being fired into Israel but the actions of Israel are over the top - they have completely lost the plot - do they really think that Hamas are going to be toppled by violence - don’t they realize violence feeds violence - and the UN school story has been discredited by the UN - there were no arms in the school and innocents were killed … too many innocents are being killed - to call it collateral damage is very insensitive at the gentlest.
112. Which bit of thin air are you pulling this from?
The link YOU posted starts “Two residents of the area near UN school that was shelled by the IDF on Tuesday”
113 I was amused to hear the Palace’s view that it was OK for PH to use the word Raghead because he was referring to the enemy.
@120:
Did ‘violence feed violence’ in every war in history where one side has emerged victorious?
What breeds violence is this stupid modern trend of encouraging both sides into pointless ceasefires halfway through before either side has achieved its strategic objectives.
The correct course of action should be that Israel prosecute this war against Hamas to the fullest extent possible, until Hamas are crushed and it is victorious.
122. I’d be tempted to title the story something along the lines of “Prince Harry proved to be descended from Duke of Edinburgh”
120. The use of force (and ignoring the handwringing of western ‘liberals’) has effectively protected Israel ever since 1948.
Israel has successfully seen off the military efforts of its Arab neighbour governments to destroy it and has also been remarkably effective at suppressing insurgencies.
In the light of this, why should Israel change tack now and listen to people whose advice would have doomed it decades ago, had that advice been heeded…?
@121:
That was how it appeared at the time. It now looks as if the school was damaged by a secondary explosion from a strategic-placed Hamas cache.
Not that it matters, because even if the IDF had shelled it, it would have been the UN and Hamas’s fault. The UN’s guilt is lesser than the terrrsts, because it’s one of omission rather than commission.
124. Or how about “Confirmed : boy in Nazi uniform photo was not an impostor”.
117. Yes, I have seen that at University - one bloke was an elected person on the students union and i got some paid work painting and moving funiture. This bloke who was the elected student union official had just been holding a conference on rascicm and started coming out with alsorts of non-PC comments/jokes and said it was a load of F***ing B0ll0cks but part of the job!
…..are you tokking to me ?
That was to 126.
126. “It now looks as if the school was damaged by a secondary explosion from a strategic-placed Hamas cache.”
Does ‘looks as if’ translate as ‘Israel’s latest excuse is’?
126. “It now looks” source?
You’re going to have to explain to me how it’s the UN’s fault that the IDF shelled a school that they were sheltering civilians in. I’m missing the logic there.
Cryptic Cameron?
Asked about former Chancellor Kenneth Clarke, who has been tipped for a shadow cabinet job, Mr Cameron said: “As far as I’m concerned he’s back already.”
Hmmmm.
@132:
By sheltering citizens in buildings that they know Hamas using as strategic shields, they’re unwittingly doing the terrorists’ work.
The clue that something was up should have been when Hamas started building a rocket launch site RIGHT OUTSIDE.
The UN has never been the sharpest tool in the International Politics toolbox, I know. But even so…
132 - no, just missing the facts.
@133:
Maybe it’s like that scene in Lost Highway.
“As a matter of fact, I’m there right now…”
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=vZLQW2qr5Hs&feature=related
Creepy.
134. It’s far worse than mere foolishness - the UN is frequently incompetent and/or partial in these situations as well.
134 And the UN should have remembered that Israel don’t give a stuff about the presence of civilians, and will drop their bombs regardless of who they might kill.
35 Punter what is ESW?
139 Edinburgh South West.
134. Right outside? We have an unconfirmed claim of mortar rounds from ‘a street nearby’ from two unnamed sources.
Mortars can generally be set up very quickly rather than needing ‘a launch site’ buit’.
The point of the building was that the IDF knew where it was and was a building where they could house people and ensure there was no terrorist activity was going on. Add in this story
http://www.norwaypost.no/content/view/21467/26/
and the conclusion is either Israel doesn’t know or doesn’t care what they’re hitting. Which one do you prefer and count as acceptable?
135. Come on, what are these facts which put the UN at fault for the IDF shelling a school where there was no terrorist activity within?
How about we put Israelis and Palestinians in the same place and bomb the hell out of them, pen them in, take away their weapons and make it a turkey shoot? Let’s face it, nothing else has made them grow up yet, it might solve the problem, might even bring them together under a common cause…
On Golden Globes/Oscars, punters for the latter should be aware that the GGs split into two awards (drama and comedy/musical) whereas the Oscars lump them together. That goes for the acting awards too. Tends to be the dramas that succeed at the Oscars but you never know.
143 - “How about we put Israelis and Palestinians in the same place and bomb the hell out of them…”
Reminds me that my dad always said there was only one solution to NI’s troubles - send the Israeli army in. Luckry for NI it solved itself without.
@141:
What you seem to be saying is “there are always casualties in war”. Perhaps you’d like a biscuit for your profound insight into martial history?
Hamas are terrorists deliberately using human shields in such a way as to maximise civilian casualties, so they can maximise their press with the useful idiot pro-terrorist left in Europe.
The UN are incompetent, or worse, in systematically hiding civilians in buildings in or near where Hamas are operating, including going as far as having kids in a UN school with a full-sized Hamas rocket launch platform constructed outside, *whilst* there’s a war to eliminate rocket launches going on. That level of incompetence is so spectacular, one almost begins to suspect the UN of malice.
Off topic: I almost forgot to report on my subversive leftie act of rebellion of this past week - I managed to persuade our secretary to buy Fair Trade coffee instead of Gold Blend for the office kitchen!
Now here’s a chance for someone to tell us how much of the money from Fair Trade actually goes into providing guns for Marxist rebels in South America….
143. “How about we put Israelis and Palestinians in the same place and bomb the hell out of them, pen them in, take away their weapons and make it a turkey shoot? Let’s face it, nothing else has made them grow up yet, it might solve the problem, might even bring them together under a common cause…”
There’s already a turkey shoot of Palestinians going on, so rather than extending it to both sides I think on balance I’d prefer a ceasefire.
As for ‘common cause’, I take it you haven’t heard the inspiring news that Israeli television are putting forward a Palestinian singer to perform a duet with an Israeli at the Eurovision Song Contest! Presumably the lyrics will be along the lines of “let’s sing for the children, why can’t we all live in peace, hey hey well we can, just as soon as every remnant of Hamas is wiped from the face of the earth, and until that moment hundreds of civilian casualties are a tragic necessity, oooh yeah, baby…”
140 Punter, if Alistair Darling clings on to Government office I expect the good citizens of Edinburgh to ditch him for the smart young Tory offering himself instead.
We are about to see the Scottish Tories push through the SNP Government budget for the second year in succession, giving us a second year of frozen council tax reduced small business rates etc and with Alex Salmond having already indicated he will support a minority David Cameron government on an issue by issue basis, the Scottish Tories, sitting at 20% in the latest YouGov poll are scenting Labour and LibDem blood.
The Scottish Tories have recently appointed Michael Crow, former STV political correspondent and presenter of Politics Now as their MEdia chief and for months now they have had almost weekly campaign days in the key marginals and target seats.
“How about we put Israelis and Palestinians in the same place and bomb the hell out of them…”
I’m thinking of that character Kenny Everitt did, can you guess which one?
147 - “I take it you haven’t heard the inspiring news that Israeli television are putting forward a Palestinian singer to perform a duet with an Israeli at the Eurovision Song Contest!”
Maybe ‘Boom, bang a bang’ would be most appropriate…
I just don’t understand how when the U.N. and other organizations accuse Israel of war crimes, the casualty figures of innocent Palestinians is rising, schools are being bombed, that people can just take one side - Hamas yes is a terrorist organization and no one condones shelling of Israel - but the reaction of Israel is way over the top - it can’t be justified in any sense of the word, the world is condemning this action - it just needs to stop - the problem is it can’t because we have an extremist government in Israel pandering to a war hungry election crowd, and Hamas who won’t give in under any circumstances no matter how many bombs Israel drops - violence v violence - it is a vicious circle - and what happens at the next election in Israel 2 competing war hungry parties fighting to see who can do as much damage as possible - it won’t end - it doesn’t seem possible - Israel occupied Gaza and shells fell on Israel, Israel leaves Gaza shells fall on Israel and Israel attacks Gaza and missiles fall on Israel … getting rid of Hamas is a wonderful goal but who replaces them a more extreme organization and then Israel elects a more extreme government and the cycle continues ….
146 What an achievement Sandy, you must be very proud indeed.
@151:
So, let’s get this straight: Hamas is a terrorist organisation, but doing anything about them can’t be ‘justified’?
So, what, Israel has to just stand back and let the terrorists do whatever the f*ck they want?
153. “So, what, Israel has to just stand back and let the terrorists do whatever the f*ck they want?”
The answer to that query, Martin, can be summed up in your favourite word - “proportionality”.
148 So what value a range of very good to not would you place Ladbrokes odds in ESW. The Telegraph claim that appointment was very much suggested by Cameron who is extremely keen to have more than a negligble presence in Burns country.
154 good summation - proportional is the key word - Israel is using disproportionate force - and as a consequence causing a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, fueling more violence, creating civilian deaths and ensuing more and more rockets end up in Israel both north and south …
@154:
Ah, the “P” word. That insidious old lefty canard. Appears to be about military strategy, actually means “Jews are evil”. Very cunning.
The proportionate response, of course, would be to fire one rocket a civilian target in Gaza every time they fire one out. And every time an Israeli dies, going into Gaza and shooting a randomly chosen set of people in the head, one for each Israeli killed.
Is that what you want? In which case, you’re just embarrassing.
155. I thought it was an act of mercy, and he was trying to demonstrate his goodwill to the Scots by finally getting Michael Crow off our screens.
153. Shelling UN schools isn’t justified. Either Israel doesn’t care or can’t aim well enough.
It is a very sad comment on the quality of our MSM that the total non-story concerning one of our thicker royals is allowed to top the agenda all day. Shame on them and also on the faux self-righteous indognation of idiot Labour MPs and Trevor Philips for joining in. If its so serious perhaps they’d like to bring the MPs back early from their ridiculously long holiday.
@159:
Shelling Hamas rocket installations is justified, even if they happen to be next to UN schools.
157. Out of interest Martin, what do you consider “too far”, what would Israel have to do for you to say ‘that was unjustified’?
157. Martin, if I said “it’s an awfully wet day out there” that would go through the sophisticated Coxall translation device and still come out as “I hate Jews”. But that’s how ‘cunning’ I am.
“The proportionate response, of course, would be to fire one rocket a civilian target in Gaza every time they fire one out. And every time an Israeli dies, going into Gaza and shooting a randomly chosen set of people in the head, one for each Israeli killed.
Is that what you want? In which case, you’re just embarrassing.”
No, that’s not what I want, but it’s worth pointing out that if that’s what Israel had done the number of civilian deaths would be a tiny fraction of what it is, so in a chilling way the Palestinian people might have preferred that. But as for what I want - dare I say a ceasefire?
148
So after the next GE the Scottish Tory MP’s will need a tandem to get to Westminster, thats quite an upgrade.
@162:
That’s a bit of an open-ended question. I suppose, if they started deliberately firing rockets at civilians with the sole intention to cause civilian death (like Hamas), or started using Human Shields (like Hamas) or being committed to wiping out and entire race (like Hamas)…
Yes, if Israel ever became like the left’s special terrorist friend, Hamas, they would have gone too far.
Now your turn. Is there anyway the Zionist Entity could defend that would not be too minor for you to label it ‘disproportionate’?
@163:
Red Meteor, why do you think that Israel feels the need to take the action it’s taking?
161. “Rocket installations” Martin, go look up what a mortar is, and comprehend how you can dump it, fire it, and move on double quick. Shelling the rough area the mortars came from is pointless because they’ve most likely already gone. The only people you’re likely to hit are civilians.
@163:
You want Hamas, the terrorist organisation busily constructing an Islamist state in Gaza, to be just left alone to rebuild its military capacity for another attempt at destroying Israel a few years hence?
This is your stated wish. LEAVE THE TERRORISTS ALONE.
Good job, man.
157. The “any criticism of Israel must be antisemitism” argument is both tired and unnecessary.
166. Is that the best you can do? The Soviet Union ‘felt the need’ to invade Afghanistan, but that doesn’t mean it was morally justified.
161: Martin, what do you consider acceptable collateral damage - killing 1 civilian for each Hamas member, 10 civilians? 100? Do you even have an upper limit? I’ll tell you my accetable limit - zero. I’ll also tell you my acceptable number of Israeli civilian deaths - zero.
62. I say let’s skip William who is clearly a bald emo and go straight for King Harry. He’s the chain smoking, machine gun weilding, gunship flying, ethnnophaulism spewing King we need.
155. FWIW Peter I have had a few quid on that market. The Tory PPC is apparently quite impressive, and of course much of the constituency was Tory for years prior to 97
168. “This is your stated wish. LEAVE THE TERRORISTS ALONE.”
OK, Martin, now all you have to do is point out when and where I actually ’stated’ that wish, and you win the prize.
Small hint - you haven’t won the prize.
@167:
Semantics. Okay, the UN were incompetently sheltering kids in a school, outside which Hamas had just so happened to build a mortar encampment.
Doesn’t excuse Hamas or the UN’s complicity in the deaths at all.
that’s the point when the line is crossed when people who dare to attack the disproportionate actions of Israel are called anti-Jewish - being opposed to the actions of the current Israeli government and the IDF is not the same as being anti-Jewish - when people realize this and grow up the world will be a better place - just because people do not like Bush or his policies does not make them anti-American …..
64. The royal family live in the lap of luxury from their private wealth, and would continue to do so if we became a republic tomorrow. The fact that the Treasury’s annual subsidy to them is less than the cost of the president’s office in Germany and in Italy, suggests the royal family’s private wealth is actually subsidising the country’s head of state duties.
There are lots of arguments you can make for getting rid of the monarchy. Cost isn’t one of them.
I was just thinking that what the Internet really needs is another debate on Gaza.
172. Sandy Rentool: what do you consider acceptable collateral damage - killing 1 civilian for each Hamas member, 10 civilians? 100? Do you even have an upper limit? I’ll tell you my accetable limit - zero. I’ll also tell you my acceptable number of Israeli civilian deaths - zero.
Meanwhile, back in the real world…
Proportionality is not the test.
Either Israel can take action, or it should not. If it is proper for Israel to take action, it should seek to achieve its military aim using as much force as it can muster. “Overwhelming force” was the phrase used in the Iraq war, and in all the controversy about that war, I never once heard anyone argue that we should try to level the playing field and give Saddam a sporting chance.
IF the suggestion is that Israel is using illegitimate tactics, that’s nothing to do with proportionality.
For what it is worth, I regard Israel’s approach as misguided so far as its own interests are concerned, but that it so far has acted fully within its rights.
@175:
But as for what I want - dare I say a ceasefire?
Reading between the lines a little, you want Hamas to be left alone by Israel, to give them time to rebuild so they can have another chance to wipe them out in a few years time?
Is anyone else finding PB.com really slow today?
@172:
Well, since we’re dealing with a terrorist organisation that uses human shields, tough shit. There are gonna be civilian casualties, whether you hand wring leftie spoons like it or not.
175. Red Meteor: all you have to do is point out when and where I actually ’stated’ that wish [to leave the terrorists alone], and you win the prize.
It was in your 164, in which you wrote as for what I want - dare I say a ceasefire?
178. I wasn’t making the argument for getting rid of the monarchy. I think it probably provides a net benefit to the UK economy from all the tourism revenue.
The point is that thousands of Pakistani’s in britain pay taxes that go towards the monarchy. The amount is irrelevant, the very fact that they do is an argument for why Harry shouldn’t go around insulting them.
176, Semantics? The UN were sheltering kids in a school. Somewhere nearby (according to two handy unidentified phone witnesses) mortars were fired. So the Israelis managed to hit the school with shells.
You seem to be obsessed with this idea of installations and encampments being set up. It’s a mortar, you put it down, fire it, pick up and move on. No building required. By the time anyone knows you were there you’re already gone. All firing at that spot is doing is hitting civilians.
185. Er, no. I don’t think a ceasefire after several days of utter carnage could be credibly classified as “leaving Hamas alone”.
186. Fair enough. I broadly agreed with the rest of your post, but there seemed to be a side dig in the “lap of luxury” remark, which I felt was untrue.
184. So you don’t have an upper limit. Splendid.
On that note, I’m off.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2009/jan/09/gaza-human-rights?picture=341550348
these are the true victims - the innocents - the one’s whose lives are being destroyed ….
184. I have no problem accepting that Hamas uses human shields to maximise civilian casualties. What confuses me is why Israel keeps ‘taking the bait’ and falling into their trap. Every time they kill Palestinian civilians, they only make it easier for Hamas and their allies to recruit, while damaging their reputation internationally. It’s got to be counterproductive for Israel in the long run, yet they keep doing it…
188. Red Meteor: I don’t think a ceasefire after several days of utter carnage could be credibly classified as “leaving Hamas alone”.
Then there’s no point in this discussion.
@188:
How else would you classify it?
Presumably, then, you accept that Hamas is on the back foot and losing this war. When one is winning, it’s not normally sound tactics to suddenly stop and give your enemy a chance to rebuild and rearm.
In fact, I’d go as far as to say that a ceasefire now would be retarded.
192. Alasdair: What confuses me is why Israel keeps ‘taking the bait’ and falling into their trap.
That used to confuse me too, until I realised that the only alternative is to sit there and take whatever Hamas wants to dish out.
@191:
Well, perhaps if the left weren’t giving moral and intellectual succour to a terrorist organisation, that number would be far fewer.
Yes, civilian casualties are a tragedy. Yes, Hamas and the UN could have eliminated nearly all the civilian casualties we have seen, but chose not to.
All of which demonstrates, even more clearly, the necessity of crushing Hamas.
195. They could use targeted strikes and covert operations to cut off the supply tunnels (while letting legitimate trade through the border posts). Israel seems to think it can beat the Palestinian population into submission so they simply agree to Israel’s terms. In fact, the reverse is true. People with nothing else to lose see no down side to engaging in violence.
@197:
It doesn’t need to beat the Gazan population, all it needs to do is destroy Hamas’s operational capacity. Fatah will do the rest.
196. When was the last time a non-state militia operating in an urban area with a sympathetic population was successfully “crushed”?
and now we have the second myth that the left supports terrorism - first it was anti-Jewishness and now supportive of terrorism - pretty silly statements to make but it seems to clarify the position of someone who thinks the murder of children is collateral damage -
Can any of those lambasting Martin C explain in specific terms what they mean by a “proportionate” response by Israel to Hamas terrorism?
189. “there seemed to be a side dig in the “lap of luxury” remark”
I freely confess to believing in limited redistribution of wealth* and not being too fond of excessive wealth. But that’s got nothing to do with him being the monarch.
*Buckingham palace would make great social housing.
196. Remind me again, how is this the UN’s fault? I didn’t quite catch the logic of ‘UN sheltered civilians in building there was no terrorist activity in and the IDF knew the location of, so it’s their fault they got shelled’.
And if you think this shelling is going to crush Hamas you’re being ridiculous.
OK, Socrates suggests “targeted strikes”…but at whom and where? Any other suggestions?
198. Well the Gazan population is being beaten, and sympathy for their plight among Palestinian and other Arabs will lead to funding and a new generation of young men flowing to work for Hamas. This will easily make up for any temporary loss of operational capacity.
204. On militant leaders - they’ve done that successfully before. And, as I said, on collapsing the tunnels used to smuggle weapons.
202. Correction; Part of the royal family not the monarch.
The good lady has me doing a spring clean but just a quick question re: Harrygate. Has the young chap Ahmed, Harry’s fellow soldier, been asked what he things of being called a Paki?
It’s a horrible word and I myself would never use it but, just like n—-r, I know that some people use it to describe themselves while others are (bizarrely) open to their white pals using it ironically.
In Harry’s defence, he did seem to use it maliciously about his fellow soldier - but for me the key is the culture of that regiment and whether his colleague Ahmed finds it offensive or whether it is used by the soliders ironically and in jest.
193. “Then there’s no point in this discussion.”
Why, because I expressed an opinion you disagreed with? In that case, given our political differences, there’s very little point in us ever discussing anything.
194. “Presumably, then, you accept that Hamas is on the back foot and losing this war.”
I can hardly keep a straight face reading that comment. If you mean, do I accept that Hamas and the Palestinian people as a whole are being pummelled by overwhelming Israeli military force they have no response to, then yes, I rather think everyone in the whole world would have to concede that. But if on the other hand “winning this war” means Israel achieving its stated objectives and making its own people more secure, then no they’re not winning, because the war is quite simply unwinnable on those terms. Israel’s security will only be achieved by negotiation - in fact a disproportionate military response only makes matters worse for them.
208. I meant DID NOT in the third paragraph
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7822643.stm
and on a lighter note for Sunday the President-elect dines on fast food - not long to go until January 20 - I just wonder how fast Bush will take to leave the grounds of the White House after the swearing in - what is the protocol ? Does Obmama take the oath - give his speech - and then we switch to Bush darting to the helipad and leaving for Texas ?
184. “Well, since we’re dealing with a terrorist organisation that uses human shields, tough shit. There are gonna be civilian casualties, whether you hand wring leftie spoons like it or not.”
I think we have a new contender for the lyrics to Israel’s peace anthem at Eurovision.
206 - Thanks. Just to be clear: you would have no problems with Israel continuing, perhaps intensifying, assassinations of Hamas leaders?
But this would surely not have an immediate impact on the actual terrorist actions directed at southern Israel, would it?
I’m no military person, but what are the practical logistics of collapsing those tunnels without a presence on the ground?
@205/206
With respect to Arab support for Hamas: no. Hamas has become an embarassment. The Arab states and Fatah are all very happy that Israel is doing their dirty work for them.
As for the smuggling tunnels, those brutish and evil Jews are already targeting those tunnels. It was a source of much idiot-shouting at yesterday’s pro-terrorist march. But Cherie Booth’s sister sez those tunnels are only used for bringing in food, and definitely not smuggled weapons oh no. So that’s fine then.
213. Depends how well you know where they are, and how much collateral damage you’re prepared to cause.
209. Red Meteor: Why, because I expressed an opinion you disagreed with?
Because you don’t equate “ceasefire” with “stopping attacking” with “leaving alone”.
If you don’t agree with that - it’s not a different opinion, it’s a symptom of us following fundamentally different logical processes - in which case, we’ll never understand each other’s points and will therefore be unable to respond to them in a meaningful manner.
In main thread, I suspect “Seat losses and gains in the June 2007 elections” should be
“Seat losses and gains in the June 2009 elections” elections.
Otherwise the predictions might be unsurprisinglya ccurate
216. LS, that’s completely absurd. A ceasefire does not constitute a pledge never to take further action under any circumstances - if Hamas attacks Israel again, Israel then has renewed cause to take proportionate steps to defend itself. The point I was making - as I’m sure you understand perfectly well - is that on the terms of Israel’s casus belli for this war (ie. the Hamas attacks to date), Isarel can hardly be said to have ‘left Hamas alone’ if they now call a halt to their offensive after two weeks of unremitting death, suffering and destruction in Gaza.
213. I have absolutely no problem with assassinating Hamas leaders. Although obviously I wouldn’t be willing for Israel to destroy entire neighbourhoods to take them out. The other caveat would be that it doesn’t make sense to target them during a ceasefire, as that would undermine the Palestinians belief that Israel will ever uphold its end of a deal.
As for the tunnels, they must be going under borders, so it would certainly possible for Israeli or Egyptian troops to do it.
214. Martin, with respect, you seem to be basing your beliefs on Arab reaction to Israeli actions on your own prejudices rather than any objective facts. Hamas have gained popularity with time, and they gain popularity the more militant Israel is.
The big problem is that some think military victory is the only important thing and, when you have that, then all else falls into place.
It isn’t and it won’t.
Hams, in actual fact, consider victory the very act of drawing Israel into a fight, as soon as they have achieved that then the result is inconsequential. In fact, short term destruction is a long term benefit for them, especially given that Israel are determined not to win hearts and minds internationally. Fatah are
Is it just me or do the media seem to delight in quoting words that they could not normally use? The obvious word used by Prince Harry has just been mentioned about 5 times on a one minute piece on ITN news! I have not used it again as it was used upthread.
218. Red Meteor: A ceasefire does not constitute a pledge never to take further action under any circumstances
No-one said it did. It allows them to rebuild in peace, which would inevitably lead to more attacks that lefties the world over would immediately denounce as “disproportionate”, no matter what they are.
…not a part of this battle, except for their concern that this will only serve to make Palestinians more extreme and reduce their support further.
(pressed submit too early, hence Hamas being Hams!)
I call some of my paki friends pakis and they don’t find it offensive. Its on on friendly term of endearment , similar to saying “how are you , you old queer” to gay mates! Sorry if this offends people’s pc sensitivities but in yorkshire we call spades spades and get called tykes in return (which some also take offence at). Hardly front page newsworthy though. At very mixed school in north of england i attended paki was used as abbreviation of pakistani by and large. The negative connotation coming later, that it wasnt the done thing to refer to people’s races at all. I think we have grown up since the 80’s. I havent any problem with referring to pakistanis as pakis. Maybe i would get odd looks at hampstead dinner parties but there we go. People choose to take offence at things sometimes rather too easily. Glad i dont have guilt about this issue.
225. This is not just pc sensitivities. I know asians who think of it as nearing the n-word for black people, and if you called them such then you’d be likely to get a smack in the mouth for your trouble.
All of this fuss over a three year old video in which a young man made the allegedly ‘offensive’ comment to a friend of his in a patently non-malicious way? Political correctness gone mad. Is this a slow news day or what?
Whether we like it or not, different rules apply depending on if you’re inside or outside a particular group. Mel Brooks’ ‘The Producers’ and ‘Hitler Rap’ do not permit Harry’s fancy dress (and not merely because the first 2 were hilarious while the last definitely wasn’t).
It’s not just a young man though is it. It’s the third in line to the throne.
What Harry said and common sense dictates are words that one would not use as they are prone to cause offense - I would not dream of calling my friends “P” word or “N” and if any of my “friends” called me a queer or a faggot I would not be impressed - stressing straight friends in the latter - banter between gay friends is different as you are using them in a different context - dressing up as a Nazi, using racist terms, and his grandpa using racist terms does not endear one to be a monarchist
227. Its not a slow news day, its a very old story about an exceptionally thick army officer, and someone, somewhere must be trying to curry favour with Brown, it keeps qualitative easement, adjustment, and the latest round of job losses off the front pages.
As a Fulham supporter things just couldnt be better this weekend. Chelski get stuffed 3-0 at Man Utd and Spurs lose to a late goal at Wigan . Just makes the ghastly bug I have feel a bit more tolerable
232 You like Reds stuffing Blues then………
Am I being even more cynical than usual when I see that Dacre is recommending reducing the 30 year rule to 15 in his report already handed to Gordo?
I hold no truck with the view that government should be carried out in secret - but this smacks of playing politics again.
Move the gateposts just before a 2010 election - hope to find some more ammunition with which to attack the opposition.
Don’t you just love ‘em?
234 Simon - Maybe Cameron should counter by proposing an ‘experiment’ whereby for five years, the delay goes down to 10 years.
I’m sure it would help the circa-2014 election to have the full story of Iraq in the public domain. In this interests of transparency, you understand.
233
On the football pitch… UNDOUBTEDLY !!!
re 2 spot on - the question of intent is everything. Take rappers for instance they’re forever using words which are ordinarily considered racist.
235 - transparency is most important
Why not just establish a rule that all papers are made public one month after the general election?
Or just make everything that doesn’t have NS implications available at the end of each year?
Any rule is going to be arbitrary - so let us go for maximum openness
Yes we just watched Chelsea get stuffed by Man Utd. Even over the pond it is fun watching that …..
re 18 how about a competition on how many Tory supporters Nick managed to find, and how many thought Gordon was doing a wonderful job and could they please have his babies?
re 100 why the “n word”. Can you not print it out in full? Words per se are not offensive.
240. My bid is 2
re 154 Martin don’t be stupid. Of course Israel can take steps, but it is taking the wrong ones.
Suppose bin Laden was holed up in a school of 250 children, effectively taking them hostage. The Americans are desperate to kill him, would they be justified in flattening that school and killing everyone? Of course they wouldn’t and neither is anything the Israelis are doing justified.
240 I was thinking about Nick Palmers two converts
who thought Gordo was doing a brilliant job..;) It was damned cold yesterday, say anything to shut the door ASAP???
243
Should they hand out pizzas?
Not sure what to think. My son was called Paki at school and Shoaib in Australia. His maternal grandfather being Maltese he has a slightly olive skin. Seems to have mananaged to live with it.
243. Chris A: Of course Israel can take steps, but it is taking the wrong ones.
What should they do?
re 247
a) stop killing innocent people
b) stop taking land that isn’t theirs
c) return all their stolen land in the West Bank to the Palestinian authorities
d) negotiate with the Palestinian government on this basis, Gaza to be sorted out later.
That is the one way to increase support for Fatah. The way they’re going about it we’ll soon have a Hamas government in the West Bank as well.
248. Chris A.
Ah, you mean “do what they offered in 2000 that Arafat turned down”?
@248:
(a) Unfortunately, when dealing with terrorists that use human shields, that’s physically impossible. The correct aim is to kill as few innocents as Hamas will allow.
(b) and (c) Israel have never done (b), and offered to do (c) in 2000 and were rebuffed by the Palestinian Authority. You’ve really bought into the anti-semitic blood libels of the terrorists if you believe otherwise.
(d) Yes, once Hamas is eliminated, a negotiated settlement becomes possible.
So, you agree that squashing Hamas is an easy route to a negotiated settlement?
O/T Medibank International Sydney. I am backing Serra to win each way at 66/1 (stanjames.com and betdirect.com). There are about 5 more likely players to win, but he is in the weakest quarter and easiest half. Plus he had quite a good start to the year in reaching the quarter-finals of Brisbane.
In the match-betting for the same tournament I am backing Nieminen to beat Lopez @ 8/11 with boylesports.com. Nieminen has a 4-0 head-to-head lead over Lopez. The Finn was a touch unlucky to lose the last 2 sets 7/6 7/6 against Tsonga in round 2 earlier this week, but his 2 matches will be a good workout for this tournament.
@249:
Ssh, stop trying to ruin lefties’ antisemitic conspiracies with tawdry facts. You can prove anything with facts.
CAMP DAVID LALALALALALA CAN’T HEAR YOU LALALALALA EVIL JEWS
Just to add a bit of colour I would like to point out that the level of casual “racism” among Sandhurst graduatesand among the sloanes with whom Harry consorts is phenomenal in my experience.
I have no comment aboput what Harry actually did was racist in itself.
However I do know that shortly after he gradauted a large group of Army juior officers had a party in a mess in a training camp in Dorset where the theme was “Iraq then and now” and featured inter alia a dummy being electrocuted in the toilets orture chamber style (then) and some homo-erotic reenactments of Abu Graib (now).
Further among my sloane friends at oxford a favoured drinking song was “Glory Glory bomb the ragheads”.
Finally a friend who was at Sandhurst, subsequently lft the army through injury and now is starting as a lawyer in a top city firm is, frankly, the most racist person I know- he can not mention anyone non-white without using one of these perjorative terms.
Harry should be judged in the conext of this- it is IMHO too much to expect someone of his intelligence not to follow the crowd in these instances.
I hope I have said nothing with potential for libel, I dont believe I have but if I have then please delete!
With Harry’s comments (which I think have been blown out of all proportion, reference the NOTW editor being so sanctimonious in the press)this should put an end to any speculation about his paternity, given his temperamental similarities to the duke of Edinburgh.
OT (I think) A large demonstration in Nice against the Israeli carpet bombing of an area not much bigger than Soho and Covent Garden but with a population several times as large. Can’t these Euro lefties ever get their priorities right….
….Don’t they know that a nineteen year old British soldier called one of his mates ‘Paki’ three years ago? Thank goodness for the News of the World for bringing this to our attention.
When they call the German football team Krauts and the French one Frogs it’s just friendly banter. Can’t anyone tell the difference?
@255:
To mention a pro-terrorist rally by French idiot-left anti-semites, they’d have to mention the London rally of those who support Israel too.
The BBC would hate that.
241. I can, it’s just habit I guess. I even have a tendency to think of it as such to an extent. I comment as if I was speaking, and I have a sort of auto-translate feature that changes nigger to n-word without me thinking about it.
Oh, and BTW Roger, the Gaza Strip is 139 square miles. Either you’ve got some scale-identification issues or you’re talking about a different Soho and Covent Garden.
258 Roger would never let detail get in the way.
253. An uncomfortable but important point.
252. Says the man who went from ‘terrorist firing inside UN premises’ to ‘firing somewhere near UN premises’ and contradicted his own source regarding a mysterious Hamas weapons cache (and evidence for that btw?) that was actually responsible for the damage to the school that the major news networks described as ’shelling’.
Anti Semites of course! I should have realized. Why else would anyone object to killing on an industrial scale which in terms of population is equivalent to 50,000 in the UK in just ten days?
@262:
Roger, serious question. Do you, have you ever, possibly, tried to understand why Israel does what it does?
Martin C. I’m guessing that you’re Jewish. Doesn’t it ever bother you that you can get immediate citizenship in Israel and buy any house you choose but the person whose family have lived there for generations and who was ejected without compensation has no such right? It bothers me.
@261:
Yes, so Hamas set up a mortar encampment, deliberately, next to a UN school. That’s Hamas doing it’s usual trick of using kids as human shields.
The UN, in its infinite wisdom, decides to shelter kids in this school whilst all this is going on. IDF attack the terrorists, school gets damaged in the process. Unfortunate, but these things happen in war.
Hamas are the most guilty party here, but the UN have a crime of stupidity on their hands too for allowing themselves to become part of Hamas’s “kids as human shields” strategy.
@264:
I’m not Jewish, no.
261. corp - are you 2/2 so far in the NFL this w-end ?
This row is getting rather boring- turn the page as Macain would say.
Roger, you do know that the people you’re talking about are those who refuse Israeli citizenship? There are Arab Israelis who have all the rights of majority Israelis, plus they don’t have to serve in the IDF, which makes is a right most Israelis don’t get.
If you reject Israeli citizenship, why should you be surprised if the govt. doesn’t treat you equally?
MC. 265. “Roger, serious question. Do you, have you ever, possibly, tried to understand why Israel does what it does?”
Certainly. I just don’t accept it. For me it’s simple. This is completely disproportionate. There has to be another solution to the irritation of sporadic rocket attacks which have killed or maimed less than ten people in 4 years. If Israel can’t find another solution they should look harder. It is also counter productive.
“Roger, you do know that the people you’re talking about are those who refuse Israeli citizenship?”
Rubbish.
@270:
You see, that’s fine. You’re able to empathize, even if you don’t agree.
There are many, many of the left, however, when invited, are unable or unwilling to empathize with Israel when invited. Yet, they seem to spontaneously empathise with Islamist terrorists without prompting.
When somebody is unable and unwilling to empathize (without needing to agree) with Israelis, when they can and do empathize with Islamist terrorists, one fairly obvious conclusion rears its head as to why that might be.
@271:
You do know that there are Arab Israeli citizens right? There are Arab Knesset members, Arabs serving in the IDF…
270. Roger: This is completely disproportionate.
What actions can Israel take that would be both effective and “proportionate”?
Ive been called every name under the sun but words are words as far as im concerned. Was taught from any early age “sticks and stones” etc. I’ve not got patience with people that are easily offended.
Ive been called every name under the sun but words are words as far as im concerned. Was taught from any early age “sticks and stones” etc. I’ve not got patience with people that are easily offended.
274. It should be clear by now that any Israeli action against Palestinians is automatically labelled ‘disproportionate’ by the blinkered lefties and others…
The use of this term is just a cover for underlying prejudices of the ‘Israel nasty oppressor-Palestinians plucky underdogs’ type…or worse…
It was more likely to be a farewell tour since it was probably the last time Gordon will be able to venture outside the gates
of Downing Street without being pelted with rotten tomatoes by the jobless hordes.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/79419/Gordon-s-roadshow-just-goes-to-show-he-hasn-t-got-a-clue
Yes I will be getting ready to shout at the next election at Brown’s battle bus in local marginals - Labour Labour Labour - Out Out Out! If it gets really bad for Labour safe seats like Huddersfield! Labour have delivered nothing for the unemployed (me) and the writer is spot on when she says Brown has wasted a week when he has “done nothing” but make a clown of himself.
Talk of retraining people is b0ll0cks as well - what do they suggest retraining me as a brain surgeon or something like that? There are no jobs out there! Oh unless you are looking at NHS development managemt jobs……….. I wait for the announcements this week and will probably laugh at the futility of the Labour party being the deliver nothing party!
Details from the YouGov poll:
The EU has a minimum VAT rate of 15%, and a maximum of 25%, as part of its strategy of achieving a single market in goods and services across the EU. Some commentators have suggested this 15% limit is why the Government only cut VAT by 2.5% in the Pre Budget Report last November.
In this Spring’s Budget if the Government thinks that a further cut in VAT is necessary to combat the recession do you think they should keep to or disregard these EU rules and cut VAT anyway?
The government should keep to these EU rules 25
The government should disregard these EU rules 59
Don’t know 16
If there were a referendum tomorrow on whether Britain should join Europe’s single currency the Euro how would you vote?
In favour of joining 24
Against joining 64
Would not vote 3
Don’t know 9
Has the economic crisis made you more or less likely to support Britain adopting the Euro or has it made no difference?
The economic crisis has made me MORE likely to support adopting the Euro 18
The economic crisis has made me LESS likely to support adopting the Euro 27
The economic crisis has not made a difference to my likelihood to support adopting the Euro 49
Don’t know 6
If the UK could have the ideal relationship with Europe which one of the following would you yourself prefer?
The UK staying a full EU member on current terms, including the Lisbon Treaty 22
The UK having a looser arrangement with Europe, maintaining free trade and cooperation in some areas, but taking back powers and ending the supremacy of the European court 48
Withdrawing from the EU altogether 16
None of these 2
Don’t know 13
How realistic do you think it is for the UK to renegotiate its position with the EU to maintain a free trade area but opt out of political and economic union?
Very realistic 9
Quite realistic 24
Not very realistic 39
Not realistic at all 12
Don’t know 15
Do you think any of the three main political parties (Conservative Labour Liberal Democrats) adequately represent your views on Britain’s future relationship with the European Union?
Yes, at least one of them does 29
No, none of them do 45
Don’t know 26
http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/files/yougov-poll-for-gv-tpa.xls
Interesting, LS. In especial:
The UK staying a full EU member on current terms, including the Lisbon Treaty 22
The UK having a looser arrangement with Europe, maintaining free trade and cooperation in some areas, but taking back powers and ending the supremacy of the European court 48
Withdrawing from the EU altogether 16
None of these 2
Don’t know 13
So, we have Labour and the Lib Dems fighting over that 22%, and UKIP fighting for that 16%, leaving 48% undefended and ripe for the Tory plucking.
And what do you know, the British public support Dave’s plan for Britain’s relationship with the EU!
280. That might have been relevant had not Europe been about 9,000th priority for determining voting intentions. Nothing else matters but the economy and the ability to assign or deflect blame for the destruction thereof. Nothing else matters.
I used to be a Member of the Conservative Friends of Israel but I didnt renue my subscription after Israel got away with kidnapping Mordecai Vanunu and send him to jail for decades for revealing to the world what the Israeli Government had denied, that it was aggressively pursuing a nuclear development programme.
People, especially in the US and UK keep making apologies for Israel as the “only democracy in the Middle East”. However both the UK and US blatantly apply selective reasoning when it comes to Israel.
I doubt anyone argues with Israel having the right to defend itself and that Israel has the right to exist.
HOWEVER, there are numerous UN resolutions dating back to 1967 which Israel has been allowed by the UK and US to ignore when both countries rely on less serious breaches to justify the invasion of Iraq, placing of sanctions on Iran, Syria etc etc.
There will not be peace in the Middle East until:
1) Israel is compelled to return to its 1967 borders.
2) All Israeli settlements in the West Bank built in direct contravention of UN resolutions are dismantled and presumably the jewish occupants of them repatriated to pre 1967 Israeli land.
3) All Palestinian families forced off their own land are paid compensation or have their land returned to them.
4) Israel undertakes to stop engaging in targetted assassinations of its opponents anywhere in the world without any judicial process.
and in return
1) a recognised independent Palestinian state is created under a UN mandate. It may mean both sharing Jerusalem as their capital.
2) all Arab and Moslem countries unequivocally recognise the right of the State of Israel to exist and undertake to exercise a non-aggressive attitude towards it.
3) the Quartet launch a major rebuilding programme for housing and infrastructure to replace the homes, schools, roads, power plants etc which Israel has destroyed through bombing.
We none of us like Hamas but it is hypocritical of us in the West to effectively tell the people of the Gaza Strip that we want them to hold democratic elections but to only elect people we think are suitable to govern them which means the Fatah party rather than Hamas. I despise what the BNP stands for as much as I despise what the Labour party stands for but I woul defy any foreign government that the people of this country could not elect BNP candidates in free and fair elections. Then again that is exactly what Britain, America, France and GErmany told the Austrians a few years ago when they democratically elected Jorge Haider.
Frankly given that George W Bush and his senior ministers should be facing UN War crimes tribunals for the torture in their Cuban case and Iraqi prison camps and they never will doesn’t fill me with any confidence that the Israeli-Palestinian issue will ever be resolved until global warming turns the entire place into a desert uninhabitable by jew, christian or moslem!!
Two questions the Left has to answer more than the Right.
1. Were Israel to stop treating Gaza as one large prison camp, and open up the borders, would Hamas stop the rockets?
2. Has Hamas reached the point that Adams and McGuinness realised in the mid 80’s that they could never win the conflict. Bear in mind it was 10 years before Adams and McGuinness won over the rest of the IRA?
I suspect the answer to both is “unlikely”.
277 - There is indeed no virtue in a ‘proportional’ response, what counts is an effective response. This, however, isn’t one.
Aside from the basic numbers that this offensive has killed more Israelis than Hamas could ever have hoped to with their rocket attack, all it’s done is harden support for Hamas, weaken it for Israel, and create a new generation of bereaved fathers, sons and brothers to carry on the fight.
The only route to peace is for the situation in Palestine to be normalised, with development, security, and a functioning economy. When ordinary Palestinians have decent lives their support for Hamas will fall away, leaving only an ineffective rump like the ‘Real’ IRA etc in NI.
I submitted my 2009 predictions, but I tell you Mike that I don’t know how to use a spread sheet. What little I knew I lost through non-use. I don’t intend to relearn just for this, so you will have to take a patiently typed E-Mail instead.
Only just got hold of the 2008 results; with my glorious result of 27th, lol. Though then again, 27 out of 106 isn’t too bad
286 Voice
As long as you finish above Roger, you have nothing to worry about…
Regarding the EU membership question with 48% support:
“The UK having a looser arrangement with Europe, maintaining free trade and cooperation in some areas, but taking back powers and ending the supremacy of the European court”
What if one of the mainstream parties put forward a proposal for being an EEA member in (rough) line with that question?
Would that cause enough frisson to attract support from that 48%?
It would have to be timed perfectly to avoid it being undermined as membership of the EEA requires adoption of EU Directives in the areas of trade that it applies - which would rather cause some emberrassment for those promoting that policy.
285, you don’t need any technical knowledge at all. It’s just a series of questions with a box for the answer. No formulae or any nonsense like that.
186. Actually, statistically, they are the least likely ethnic group to be paying any taxes, and are the highest recipients of state benefits of any group. (Rowntree trust)
@228:
The problem with being an EEA member is it means being susceptible to EU directives without having any say in their drafting.
That would be suicidal politics. As long as EU directive can apply it will be imperative for the UK to have representation in the Parliament and Council.
291. Does mexico have such restrictions?
Ted Hankey edges out Tony O’Shea 7-6
291. Martin Coxall: The problem with being an EEA member is it means being susceptible to EU directives without having any say in their drafting.
At least it would save us our politicians introducing legislation through Europe because they can’t get it through domestically…
293 - Has anyone seen shabbier darts in a final before? It was like watching people in the pub. The BDO should just stop calling this the World Champs. It’s a joke.
293 What a CORKER of a mtach-it was nice to see the two players laughing minutes later in the lounge with BBC reporters-I enjoy the Lakeside so,so much-as I only live 70 miles away in Bournemouth I WILL go next year!!
Mike, I agree with Witan at point 28 (not often I say that!) Could you clarify whether question 17 is triggered only when (if) anyone is charged or when the CPS or police announce that there will be no charges for anyone?
re 250 no Martin not at all, what you describe is murder plain and simple.
295 O.K,it was’nt Phil Taylor-on-form standard,but still a good level IMHO.(One point-the highest outshot all week was 161-that must be a record low for the Lakeside-usually a 164,167 or 170 does crop up.The last of which means I have to be scraped off my lounge ceiling :lol:)
re 250 and take your rose-tinted specs off. The Israelis have been nicking land in the West Bank since 1967 and only a slavish Israeli supporter can not think otherwise. It’s stupid comments like this which make me extremely angry.
A restaurateur friend of mine here in Villefranche spent Christmas in London. His first trip to the UK. Surprisingly he thought it much more expensive than France and that was when the £ and Euro were almost one-to-one. Thinking about it he’s probably right. I wonder if people in the UK realized that even the more expensive parts of the Euro zone were cheaper than the UK they would still be so anti Euro?
@300:
You can’t nick that which doesn’t belong to anybody. But once again, it always comes back to Camp David in 2000, where Israel offered the PA Gaza and the West Bank, and it refused.
We are talking about land that Israel literally cannot give away.
re 282 Thank God, a right winger who doesn’t parrot the line that whatever Israel do must be good and anyone who thinks otherwise would have been happy in the Thirds Reich.
295
David, In comparison to Phil Taylor it definitely was club darts. The internet feed kept on breaking down on my pc, nevertheless I thought the standard was not up to a world darts final. Taylor would clean up with any of the top ten of the BDO.
301. Roger: wonder if people in the UK realized that even the more expensive parts of the Euro zone were cheaper than the UK they would still be so anti Euro?
So are the most expensive parts of the dollar zone. Should we replace our currency with the USD?
@303:
Ding ding! I spy a Godwin!
301. London prices aren’t exactly typical of the UK.
295. David Roe: Has anyone seen shabbier darts in a final before?
Yes, Barneveld, last week. He lost 7-1. This match was 7-6, and worth watching all the way to the end.
re 302 do you always live in the past? That was almost 10 years ago. Why not do something constructive rather than barbaric and offer again, offer to dismantle all the settlements, offer to dismantle the wall. No, that’s too easy, the Israeli government is far happier shooting people.
And one more point,why are ‘pub darts’,or anything else of that nature,dissed by so many people-the good old-fashioned British boozer is part of our fabric,and long may it prosper.Off to my local!
304 - The averages for the finalists for the week was 90. That is 10 points behind the top 16 players in the world, none of whom appear at the Lakeside.
It was enjoyable to watch but seeing Hankey crawl over the line missing double after double was not World class stuff.
It’t like a feeder tournament for Pro darts, not a world championship.
308
I guess you would prefer to watch Darlington 3 Northampton 2 rather than Man Utd 1 Arsenal 0 ???
302. Actually it does belong to somebody. Most of the mandate, including the remnants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was given as a Palestinian state in 1948.
re 306 I’m afraid that you’ve lost me.
308 - But Barney would have won this match 7-1…
315 spot on.
@309:
Dismantle the wall? The one thing that has done more to end Palestinian terrorist atrocities against civilians?
It’s like you actually *want* Jews to die.
But then again, 2000 was more recent than 1967. Which must make 1967 even more irrelevant, right?
The reason I mention Camp David, dimwit, is because it’s an important example of what happens when you try to negotiate with Hamas. Nothing!
There can NEVER be a settlement in the Middle East as long as Hamas exists. Israel can negotiate with Fatah, not with Hamas.
312. MTF: I guess you would prefer to watch Darlington 3 Northampton 2 rather than Man Utd 1 Arsenal 0 ???
Yes.
I didn’t bother watching ManYoo v Chelski in the Greedy League today, on the same basis.
318 So you agree the quality would be less…
@313:
I don’t know where you’re getting this drivel from, but I suggest you do a little research.
“The All-Palestine government. In September 1948, partly as an Arab League move to limit the influence of Jordan over the Palestinian issue, a Palestinian government was declared in Gaza. The former mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was appointed as president. On October 1, the All-Palestine government declared an independent Palestinian state in all of Palestine region with Jerusalem as its capital. This government was recognised by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, but not by Jordan or any non-Arab country. However, it was little more than a facade under Egyptian control and had negligible influence or funding. Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip or Egypt were issued with All-Palestine passports until 1959, when Gamal Abdul Nasser, president of Egypt, annulled the All-Palestine government by decree.”
I mean, if you’re going to hate Israel, at least do it based on correct, rather than made-up information.
http://www.mideastweb.org/campdavid2.htm - the idea that Camp David 2000 or any other peace accords offered a free independent Palestine state with East Jerusalem as its capital with all the West Bank and Gaza is a complete myth - if you read the accords no where do they offer the true components of an independent state.
If Israel were to offer Palestine independence in the West Bank with the issue of Gaza to be dealt with later with its capital in East Jerusalem this would be the basis for a true and just peace.
The reasons the peace process failed was there was never a peace plan with just terms on the table.
280
The problem is Martin that it doesn’t matter what Cameron or Brown or anyone else wants to do regarding the EU. To have a ‘looser’ relationship with the EU they would need the agreement of the other member states and that just isn’t going to happen.
So the question is based on a false premis. It is as realistic as asking if we would like huge levels of governmment spending on schools, NHS, defence and everything else peple like but no taxation.
In the end there is only one choice for the British at the moment. They either accept membership of the EU with is goal of ‘ever closer union’ or they leave.
Anything else is simply imprcatical wishful thinking.
273. Actually, Arabs living under the Palestinian authority are not offered Israeli citizenship. If they did then demographics and democracy would mean the Jewish state would not exist for too much longer and the armed struggle would not be needed to achieve Hamas’ aims (assuming that Jewish terrorist groups did not start up again).
319. MTF: So you agree the quality would be less…
I agree that the absolute quality in PDC is higher than in BDO.
That doesn’t mean I consider PDC more watchable.
@321:
They certainly read like the trappings of a state to Yasser Arafat. He, after all, negotiated them, wanted to support them, and described them as a Palestinian State.
He rejected them basically because of threats from Hamas who have no interest in a negotiated solution, never have. They want one thing: drive out all the Jews and establish an Islamist state over all Israel.
No wonder the left admire Hamas so.
301
I wonder if people knew that petrol and diesel were more expensive in France now than in the UK they would not be even more anti the Euro than they are.
What’s sauce for the goose…
re 317 yes that’s right and dismantle it. I couldn’t care less if they want to built it again on the border where it should be.
No 1967 is a UN resolution. Your attitude was we tried for peace once and were rebuffed so all we’re going to do in the future is rob, bomb and kill.
There can never be a settlement in the middle east as long as the current Israeli political mindset, slavishly supported by the US exists either.
324 - Barney v Taylor a couple of years ago was closer than this match AND they both averaged well over 100. You can get both excitement AND class with the genuine best players.
BDO is just darts for people who hate Murdoch so much that they think it somehow noble to keep players skint and semi-pro.
@323:
Since Palestinians don’t consider themselves Israelis, and many don’t recognize its right to even exist, I can’t see how you’d expect it to be any other way.
Of course, Arabs living in Israel may have Israeli citizenship.
327
There can never be a settlement in the middle east as long as the current extremist Palestinian political mindset, slavishly supported by Iran and Syria exists either.
@317 Dismantle the wall? The one thing that has done more to end Palestinian terrorist atrocities against civilians?
Yes. Or more specifically, dismantle the wall and rebuild it along the border. No-one has any objection to Israel having a wall, the problem is that they built it in Palestinian land, cutting innocent people off from their property and livelihoods.
317. Martin, you’re an intelligent guy. Do you really think Hamas can be permanently eliminated by force when they are supported by half the Palestinian people?
329
And 20% of the Israeli citizens are Arabs.
I’m not going to bother arguing as according to Martin Israel can do no wrong. I bet he’s itching for them to nuke Tehran as well, and no doubt that would get the thumbs up as well.
Completely insane.
@327:
My mindset is that there’s no point negotiating with terrorists, especially not those whose sole aim is your total eradication.
You accept, do you not, that a negotiated solution would be possible between Israel and Fatah, if there were no Hamas?
@332:
You only need to destroy Hamas’s operational capacity and back them into a corner from which they can’t win and KNOW they can’t win.
Look at Northern Ireland. Nationalism was not eliminated, but the IRA were so weakened militarily that negotiation was the only option.
re 335 Martin then we’d still be having IRA bombs if you were in charge of the NI peace process. The continued aim of the IRA to this day is the total eradication of a British presence in Northern Ireland.
@334:
Actually, it’ll be Obama that goes to war with Iran, not Israel.
244 - had the opposite today, MTF - a longstanding Labour supporter who has just lost his job (surveyor for a construction firm) on Friday, because the bank reduced their loan by 60% in view of current building industry conditions, forcing the firm into administration. He smiled wryly, and said yeah, he’d probably still vote Labour, “you don’t change your beliefs because something goes wrong…I think.”
Reminded me of a couple of years ago of someone at a Christian Aid meeting, who said she’d recently lost her job as the work was being outsourced to India. “I know it’s a good thing because they need the work more,” she said wistfully. “But it’s a little hard all the same.” Some people are heartbreakingly idealistic.
328
Taylor’s average in this yrs final was 109.76 IIRC, thats a record. thats nearly 21 pts more per visit than in the BDO final. Chalk and cheese IMHO. The fact that Barneveld was trounced was irrelevant. It was a complete masterclass by a consumate professional. Unmissable if you like Darts. The BDO final only had drama because it was close, not because the darts were good. They were very poor by comparison.
339 - Nick, I’ll repeat my offer of last night. Are the Broxtowe furry luvvlies prepared to wager that there will be a swing to Labour at the by-election?
OT Philadelphia Eagles beat the New York Giants 23-11
First time that score has ever been recorded, first time the top 3 seeds have failed this early in the playoffs
Go Eagles !!!
328. David Roe: BDO is just darts for people who hate Murdoch so much
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. I understand now.
336. These people are highly religious. They believe God is on their side. People like that don’t pay attention to such trivialities as facts and reality. Right now they live in an extremely impoverished area reduced to launching inaccurate shoulder held missiles randomly into Southern Israel and there enemy is a nuclear power with one of the most advanced armed forces in the world, supported by the globe’s only superpower. If they still think they can win in these circumstances they always will. In their view, God will find a way. The IRA weren’t weakened because of military means but because enough time had passed for Bloody Sunday to be mostly forgotten, meaning the IRA blaming the British for all the province’s problems lost its credibility. That caused Northern Irish Catholics to stop seeing the IRA as freedom fighters and to start seeing them as the thugs they are.
339 Nick, Most people dont change their minds, most have already decided before the election. However some will be swayed by their personal circumstances in the same way marriages break down when times are hard. They want someone to blame, and it isnt the Americans
340. MTF: Unmissable if you like Darts.
I like darts. But I also like competition.
OT. Does anyone else hate the new Google favicon?
On topic, of course not. My performance this year was lamentable, dragged down by a hopeless misreading of the local elections. But I shall put my entry in the raffle.
346 So do I. I love competition, its not Taylor’s fault that hes better than everyone else most of the time, you just have to admire the guy. IF I had a choice between Taylor and Barneveld and O’Shea and Hankey and both matches were on at the same time. it would be no contest. Taylor/Barneveld every time.
343 - LOL. Yes, I am pointing out the averages to keep myself in work…
33 “2. Generally, “Taff” and “Paddy” haven’t been terms hurled at people during violent racist attacks in recent years.”
Odd thing.
Violent racist attacks by white or asian gangs are generally quite verbal.
Violent racist attacks by black gangs are almost entirely silent.
In my experience anyway.
Tip: If an individual or gang is attacking you and they’re calling you lots of names they’ll most likely be satisfied with bruises and a bleeding nose. If they’re completely silent then they’re much more likely to try and kill you — if you’re ever in that situation you want to get your retaliation in PDQ.
349 - But Taylor isn’t so far ahead he can slack off. It’s a few years since his last world title. Remember Barney hitting 9-darter this year.
He’s have retired through boredom if he played against Ted Hankey and Martin Adams instead of James Wade, John Part, Barney et al.
Thanks for that tip,Mr.Jones.Next time I am in the proximity of a few black youth and they don’t say nuffink I will zap them with my ray gun.
352
Its actually a miracle Taylor is still doing well. He is 49. Darts is or was a young mans’ game. Eyesight and coordination are critical. I can’t see Tayor still being there wining the world championship in his 50’s, unless he is the best darts player ever. I cant think of anyone immediately who has been world champ in his 50’s..unless you know better of course.
339 So you agree that people who lose their jobs should be voting you out then Nick? I mean otherwise why do you think thats so noteworthy? Labour voter in planning to vote Labour shocker.
I mean it takes some beating when you need to rely on anecdotal evidence of die hard Labourites not deserting you.
345: Yes, fair comment MTF.
341: Sure, John O - I missed your challenge. Shall we say £10? The furries win if the percentage gap between Conservatives and Labour is smaller than last time (or if Labour wins), your charity wins if it’s larger. If the result is exactly the same to five decimal places both charities get a tenner.
There are lots of other candidates to complicate matters (BNP, LibDem, UKIP, Green) but for the sake of simplicity let’s just take the two-party percentage gap?
354 - Taylor will win the world title in his 50s. He’s still getting better!
For all that Barney got hammered his 3-dart average in that final was much higher (101) than any EVER achieved in a BDO final.
357 - It is a fact that players losing to Taylor will have higher 3 dart averages than when playing someone there own standard. Averages are reduced by shooting at doubles. Against Taylor you often don’t get the chance.
351.
Violent racist attacks by black gangs are almost entirely silent.
Yes, when I was attacked they were silent! I had never seen them spoken to them before either.
The bloke in another incident who tried to get into my car was very verbal though!
For those dupes who continue to whine about Israel’s “right to exist”, or who are unaware of (or deny) the tactics the Zionists have used throughout history, and the wholesale corruption and control of US politics by them through to the present day.
Some real history for you…
“…It’s tragic that this is the way the American Government operates, but it is. Very often we never even knew what went on in the White House. That comes out time after time in this little pamphlet, The Pentagon Papers, 1947. In one of Mr. Henderson’s memos to the Secretary he said, “We don’t know who’s influencing these decisions. We send you information and the next day we read something that’s set up in New York by a Representative we never heard of before. Who is making these decisions?” [F.R.U.S. , 1947, Vol. V, pp. 1121-1122; 1215; 1239; 1281-82, etc.]
In other words, the State Department didn’t even know who was making the decisions. Mr. Truman himself has the most remarkable of all statements in there, a memo that’s quoted, in which he says, “Something’s going on and I don’t know what it is. Somebody called up the President of Haiti and he said that it was I. [F.R.U.S., 1947 , Vol. V, p. 1309.] He said, ‘We want you to vote for the Zionist program.’ As a result the President of Haiti changed his vote to satisfy what he thought was me. I don’t know who this fellow was that called him up.”
In other words, somebody impersonated President Truman and threatened the President of Haiti. There were people who used President Truman’s voice and name and he didn’t know who they were. The State Department never found out who they were, but this is the way decisions are made in Washington. I think I know who that fellow was. It was Robert Nathan, because I met Robert Nathan frequently at the U.N. I had met him out in the Middle East, and he was the one who was running to the telephone booth and calling up the President of Liberia, calling up Costa Rica, telling them, “Unless you will vote for our program, we will see to it that the American interhighway system is not built through your country.” These people assumed that Nathan and Co. were acting for America and nobody had consulted them at all. This kind of thing went on at the U.N. and in Washington and if you want the documentary proof of it, it’s in Mr. Truman’s statement.
Before I read this statement of Mr. Truman’s I’ll have to explain what the situation was. There was tremendous pressure upon the governments of other countries to vote for the partition program, which the Zionists had accepted. I was at the U.N. and was Mr. Henderson’s assistant and was there when he read some of these memos. I was reporting back to the State Department what was happening at the U.N.
There were a number of Jewish Zionists at the U.N., like Robert Nathan, Bernard Baruch, and various other people, who were calling up the chiefs of other states and saying, “Unless you vote for this partition program, the United States will not build a road in your country; will not help you in aid or will not do something else.” They were pretending they had the authority of the President of the United States to determine policy, when they were just one individual operating on their own. They had no authority, no official position, but they were using the importance of the United States as a threat against these countries…”
http://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/wright.htm
I’ve just put radio 5 on on my computer and they’re having a phone-in on Prince H. After the Jonathon Ross affair I thought it wasn’t possible for the media to ever again become so involved with trivia
Kav for tomorrow.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/columnists/kavanagh/article2119777.ece
358 - OK, how about the fact that the winning average in the PDC is often over 100, while no-one has ever hit 100 average in a BDO world final. In fact, it’s not been done that often in a BDO match at all. That includes winners who have to hit doubles.
Worth a punt??
Coutesy of Bloomberg
“With Gordon Brown slipping in the opinion polls he will have to think carefully about when there will be the greatest number of factors in his favor to enable him to go to the country,” Graham Sharpe, of bookmakers William Hill Plc said today. “A growing number of people believe that will be in the second half of this year.”
Punters can now win 7 pounds for every 2-pound bet on an election being held between July and December, down from 11 pounds previously, William Hill said today.
361 - I can’t believe that something Prince Harry said three years ago has been leading the news all day. Makes you cry, almost.
If he’d called his Paki mate a Tory I could understand……
365, quite. It’s pathetic.
364 - I have had small bets on late this year but I still think it will be 2010 because GB will not be in a position to win. And he’ll just sit and hope things turn until he runs out of time.
357. David Roe: Taylor will win the world title in his 50s. He’s still getting better!
My point exactly!
Incidentally, last year, Taylor set the record for the highest average in a televised match, with 114.5. The record he broke was 113.9 - by Darryl Fitton (Lakeside semifinalist this year).
361. Roger, I don’t believe, I agree with you! The media really are scrapping the barrel at the moment aren’t they?
251. Correction, the Serra outright is for the Heineken Open in Auckland, not the Medibank in Sydney.
362:
Nice quote from Kavanagh:
Benefit Claimants = Labour’s Standing Army
356 - Nick, yes, sure, that’s fine. Must confess that I only remembered this evening that the last election was in May this year (with the whole Council) and that the Tory lead nationally was probably higher then.
Yeah, but, what the heck!! As you may recall from our last wager, my chosen charity is Amnesty International, who are doubtless still campaigning from their windfall.
OT NFL
For those following the playoffs, the home teams (and favourites) are 0 for 3 thus far.
360: Rod, even assuming that that actually happened, and in the way you suggest it is no different to what most countries have done.
The solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict is not bringing up the past but getting those of good will on both sides to come to an agreement, one that would be a lot easier without the voices off.
342 — Good for you! Bad for yours truly! Oh well…
374 — I had fired 500$ on the Giants to win the SuperBowl last friday @ 4.2 (last week).
For a reason I don’t understand (my knowledge of the NFL dynamic is very limited), the Giants were favorite to 3.55 ; i was able to lay them for 500$ @ 3.6 — fortunately.
So my lost on today’s game is quite limited. Nevertheless, I hate to lose… Hate it!
I meant : The Giants were favorite @ 3.55 this morning…
377. The Giants were the defending champions. Oops.
375. Really? Other countries have fraudulently impersonated the President of the United States, phoned up foreign heads of state and said “I am the President of the United States. Do this for the Zionists, or else?”
And those things have been done, which otherwise would not have been done.
And were talking about the very creation of a state that has led to 60 years of misery for the indigenous inhabitants of the land, and of surrounding countries?
Time to wake up to reality, and do the right thing. Cut off all aid to and relations with Israel. Let Nature decide whether it continues to “exist”…
373 - no, last election was 2007! The Tories did have a good year, probably comparable to now, so evens is not unreasonable. But I’m personally engaged to a significant extent in this one, whereas in 2007 I was working in another ward (which we captured from the LibDems). Perhaps it’ll help. On the other hand, it’s the sort of ward where we have most trouble - lots of C1/C2 voters, very few Guardian or ethnic voters. Hard to predict at this stage but the Tories, the BNP and we are all going full blast.
I did, but I’m curious: Anybody gamble on SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE winning tonight Best Drama?
As I wrote : Mumbai is now one of the main nods in the geopolitical web, and that inane TV show [featured in the movie] is a perfect metaphor of what’s wrong with corporate life and greed.
381.
Some say the Governments immigration policy doesnt make sense, it does to to labour party activists though.
“Go back to the ovens”
A friend of mine in Toronto filmed this video today : we see clearly in the Youtube Video the nefarious alliance of syndicalists, hippies, neo-communists and islamotwits uniting in hatred, and shouting in chorus jew-hating slogans (”go back to the ovens”, and the like…). For real.
Scary and revealing stuff… : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5h4GC_kby9s&eurl=http://pointdebasculecanada.ca/spip.php?article834
380: No Rod not that specifically, but most countries have lied go get things they want.
The indigenous inhabitants of the land would be the Jews, and the cause of all the misery isn’t one sided. While it makes a useful diversion the Israelis didn’t force all the Arab countries to be dictatorships or feudal monarchies, and they didn’t force their neighbours to be so aggressive.
I’d put my money on a nuclear armed state with one of the best armed forces in the area.
Would you apply the same natural approach to the Palestinians? I wonder how long they would last without aid.
384. No-one “went to the ovens”, so I don’t know what your point is. Why get so bent-out-of-shape by someone else’s preposterous remarks?
And post 386 is, once more, a perfect reminder of why we cannot take this poster’s opinions on this subject at all seriously.
339 NickP. Did you tell your “long-standing Labour supporter”that we are finding economic conditions so much more difficult than countries like Germany because of excessive borrowing and spending during 10 years of Brown as Chancellor - Labour’s profligacy and incompetence?Did you tell him that you are working to hold your seat - not because it is in the country’s interest (which it isn’t)- but because you also don’t want to be out of work? What you write here is so false, it is shameful.
387. You are of course entitled to speak for yourself. But why the Royal “we”?
Delusions of grandeur, perhaps?
389: Rod, do you really think there were no ovens. You can support the Palestinians and think the Holocaust happened to.
Years ago, spending time on a kibbutz was seen a cool leftie thing in leftie circles. How times have changed.
360. Fruitcake.
389.
Rod, if you think I’m deluded, I shall have to bow to your superior experience.
390. “Ovens” in the sense as a distasteful slang word for crematoria, perhaps…
In that sense, my grandparents and several members of my family also “went to the ovens.”
But if someone should tell me to “go back to the ovens” I would not be offended, merely confused, and would think the person making the remark was deranged, or perhaps overwrought.
In itself the slogan is preposterous…
392. Who’s a fruitcake, me or Harry Truman?
394: Rod, ‘Ovens’ in this context refer to those used in Nazi death camps. I’m not sure why you are trying to excuse these racist bigots.
Roger@301 : was in Paris last week, and thought the same thing. At pretty much 1 euro per pound, was prepared to wince at the cost of everything, but even in the city centre tourist trap zones it was all pretty reasonable.
Roger ” I wonder if people in the UK realized that even the more expensive parts of the Euro zone were cheaper than the UK they would still be so anti Euro?”
You are right Roger, it might make them wonder how higher interest rates and higher exchange rates, no VAT cut and less reliance on borrowing and retail along with bullshiit work so well.
Perhaps they will rightly conclude those economies are well managed and that in contrast ours hasn’t been and has been driven into the ground over the last eleven years.
Wonder who was in charge.
396. I don’t excuse any racist bigots, least of all those of the Zionist persuasion.
Btw, please show me some evidence that Islam, in general, is “racist.”
You have over a billion examples in all countries and all races to choose from!
399: If you excuse or try and explain away racist comments it degrades you.
I’ve never claimed Islam, the Arabs, or Bognor Regis WI were racists, or a race like Labour has.
Anyways, good night Rod.
400. People who are deranged, or overwrought, often make preposterous statements, which some may find “offensive”.
Rather than labelling people, it’s usually better to try to understand, and if necessary address the problem which has led to their emotional outburst…
There’s a good chap, why don’t you?
388 - no, that’s not what I replied, svejk - lol!
Meanwhile, Return of The Big Beast, Episode 37 of the long-running drama:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jan/12/kenneth-clarke-cameron-cabinet-reshuffle
I see Draper has decided to actively remove anything not sucking a the teat of the great helmsman.
I bet everyone’s surprised.
How did such a sad guy become well-known?
“Tory peer warns against Clarke return”
“A senior Conservative peer and donor has launched a scathing attack on the prospect of David Cameron appointing “old buffer” Kenneth Clarke in a shadow cabinet reshuffle.
…
However, Lord Kalms, a former party treasurer and the founder of the Dixons retail empire, told the Financial Times: “We should not be looking for yesterday’s men. I would find a better choice who represents modern Conservatism to stick up against [Lord] Mandelson than old buffer Ken Clarke, who’s had better days.””
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/91a2d024-e035-11dd-9ee9-000077b07658.html
OT. NFL Playoffs.
Pittsburgh avoided the clean sweep by the away sides this weekend; they beat San Diego 35-24 and will host Baltimore in the AFC Championship Game next Sunday evening (23:30 GMT).
The Steelers won both regular season matchups, 23-20 (overtime) in Pittsburgh (week 4) and 13-9 in Baltimore (week 15).
That game will follow Philadelphia at Arizona in the NFC Championship game (20:00 GMT). The Eagles easily won the regular-season game, albeit in Philly, 48-20 (week 13).
404 “How did such a sad guy become well-known?”
[Moderated]
Not that old fart Kalms again. His days of glory and influence were eons ago. A bit like asking Roy Hattersley what he thinks of Brown. Fun but irrelevant.
407 - Sorry, Mr Jones, but that was a little vulgar for PB.com, and families are off limits. Hope you understand.
“Signs of a thaw”
James Hamilton:
“Yes, I saw the discouraging headlines. But I also see signs of hope in last week’s economic news.”
http://www.rgemonitor.com/financemarkets-monitor/255062/signs_of_a_thaw
409. Apologies.
@409:
Pah, and I thought it was some ironic commentary on moderation.
411 - No problem - I always feel bad moderating!
Need some sleep, so g’night all.
Martin Coxall - you done good today.
As for all the lazy, decadent and barbaric appeasers - shame shame shame!
@414:
Coulda done with some backup, man. Where were you?
No, Ralph at 385, not at all. The indigenous population of Palestine was certainly not the Jews. They were invadors, who were given the territory because they were the Chosen People. By God Almighty.
So it was that they had the right to conquor and occupy the land. And exterminate everybody else. And everybody else is reduced to the rank of third class citizens. In every country of the world. Or worse. Most of us are not even to be classed as human beings from the perspective of the Jews.
Holocaust in reverse, in effect.
415. Family and work - I’ve just caught up with the thread.
You were more than a match for all of them - you make me feel illiterate!
410- Gabble, I don’t know where you picked up that one but it does seem to indicate that the crisis is neaing its end- well done for spotting it.
It bears out the other signs of slightly returning confidence I picked up the other day- FTSE recovering from trough, interest rate cuts not as savage as anticipated and frorein interest in London housing.
The UN, in its infinite wisdom, decides to shelter kids in this school whilst all this is going on. IDF attack the terrorists, school gets damaged in the process. Unfortunate, but these things happen in war.
——————
The UN had no way of knowing about it. And it’s not even likely they were there before people were housed there. No encampment required for mortar like I said. Drop it fire it move. Leaves the Israelis firing at the one place the firers definitely aren’t, and managing to hit a school.
I find it curious you’re so desperate to fault the UN for sheltering people.
If they’re willing to negotiate with Fatah then why aren’t they? Has there been any progress on the status of the West Bank?
There are Arab Israelis yes. But only those who decided to try and sit through a warzone. Anyone who didn’t fancy that as a plan was refused permission to return to their homes after it stopped being a warzone. And Israel does iirc have an immigration policy of “Jewish=you’re in”
406. Alas, 1-3.
I don’t think Israel will ever be able to negotiate a peace with the Palestinians - there’s just too much baggage. In that context I saw a really good article about a ‘no state solution’ the other day. The idea is that since 90%+ of the population of Jordan are Palestinian, Israel should negotiate with Jordan (a country that has already recognised Israel) to cede the West Bank in its entirety to Jordan - on the condition that everyone therein be granted full Jordanian citizenship. The Palis would get a passport, a normal life and property rights. The Israelis would get peace.
Ditto Gaza and Egypt.
414. “As for all the lazy, decadent and barbaric appeasers - shame shame shame!”
Do I feel my ears burning, Gabble? Mind you, David Miliband will feel his ears burning as well - he hasn’t gone as far I’d like but he’s certainly been critical of Israel.
Although you’re misguided on this issue, it’s nice to see you occasionally break from the New Labour whip. (Or is it New Labour that’s broken free of the Gabble whip?)